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I decided to debaptise (act is now irreversible)

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I decided to debaptise (act is now irreversible)

#1

Post by Lakigigar »

The contents of my e-mail (it's in Dutch though)

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I decided to leave the Roman-Catholic church because of several attitudes of the modern church towards the LGBTQ-community, towards woman, towards sexual ethics. I also had the desire that the Church would lay more focus on nature preservation and environmentalism, but the modern church doesn't seem to respect our own home. I also questioned the fact that the Church didn't allow people to choose for their religion, and that it is a merely a choice of the parents theirselves.

This is no rejection of Jesus Christ or the concept of "God" but it is a rejection of the modern Christian church.
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#2

Post by 3eyes »

Was it a hard decision to make? I'm guessing it was triggered by the Pope's recent pronouncement about LGBTs?

Were you actively involved with the church in any substantive way? I know the situation in Europe is much different from here. Religious community has always been a bulwark against isolation and alienation for me, though the road hasn't always been easy. Enough of that.

Anyway, :thumbsup: (I guess)
:run: STILL the Gaffer!
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#3

Post by xianjiro »

Not sure if congratulations are in order, but you have bravely gone were few have tread in the forum, to broach religion. You're not alone, I too decoupled myself from organized religion officially a couple years ago for much the same reasons. I had never given in too much thought until guidance was shared that basically amounted to the shunning of children who have gay parents. For me, that was way beyond the pale, so I too became "unbaptized" and can't say I feel any worse off for it. IDK, not sure I feel much of anything about it.

Not sure Christianity is ever going to be prepared to deal with the issue of stewardship over the planet. Think of it this way, if they say they've gotten it wrong (up to now) then they are admitting to something akin to a sin. I'm not going to decide what is and isn't sinful and honestly, the concept of sin is just so problematic, but if one loves God and then trashes God's gift, well, most of us can see were the argument goes. But so many, especially evangelicals, think that the concept of dominion means to use however they want - it's there for their exploitation. Animals don't have souls, so pass me another hamburger. Or three. Noah saved chickens, what, so we could factory farm them?

However, this is only the latest, and a very modern, criticism of Christianity. Can't say I know enough about the approaches to caring for the planet in either Judaism or Islam. Buddhists do a better job, in theory, but then again, no one's perfect. I know people who still find great value in their faith community. That's great - for them! I'm just not interested in doing much more than reading or hearing about it once in a while.

I hope your sharing this - especially in real life - doesn't cause any trouble. Of course some may find it upsetting or whatever.
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#4

Post by Onderhond »

Bishops in Belgium publicly reacted against the message from the Vatican though, saying they were ashamed and disappointed by their message. So it looks like there's definitely progress. But yeah ... organized religion, it's pretty nonsensical (except as some kind of support system).
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#5

Post by Mario Gaborović »

Once you realize neither justice nor morale exist in nature as such (until we, the humans, involve), you're on the right path to discard religion altogether. No good act would grant you a reward, nor a bad deed would grant you a punishment.

Which means God does not exist, so all of their talk is plain BS. Things they tell you should do and those you shouldn't, must exist to validate their purpose - which means they need money as an unproductive part of society. You know, those who just consume and spend but do not create new value.

Now as we stripped them off of any purpose why church even exists - let alone why do they take money from us who get up every morning to go to work - let's focus on the last yet most legit reason: socially accepted behavior. For that, we already have civic education, school system and parents who all teach you good manners. And even you failed to learn it, there's prisons and courts as well if you prefer that.

So what's the purpose of these vapor/fog sellers of nothingness whose empty gabs we listen for 2,000 years? They should ditch their profession and do something useful to pay back their own cost.
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#6

Post by Lakigigar »

Onderhond wrote: March 20th, 2021, 7:37 am Bishops in Belgium publicly reacted against the message from the Vatican though, saying they were ashamed and disappointed by their message. So it looks like there's definitely progress. But yeah ... organized religion, it's pretty nonsensical (except as some kind of support system).
Vatican does that mainly for their Latin American and African base, where evangelicals have a hard time accepting LGBTQ rights. In Cuba, they were going to allow for LGBTQ rights, but the evangelical church in Cuba prevented it. So The Vatican probably followed the will of the majority of Roman-Catholic christians, and while I never identified as strongly religious, i actually never saw a reason to leave the church, but for me this has pulled the trigger, and i feel like my views evolved that much that i can't fit anymore in the church.
Mario Gaborović wrote: March 20th, 2021, 9:45 am Once you realize neither justice nor morale exist in nature as such (until we, the humans, involve), you're on the right path to discard religion altogether. No good act would grant you a reward, nor a bad deed would grant you a punishment.

Which means God does not exist, so all of their talk is plain BS. Things they tell you should do and those you shouldn't, must exist to validate their purpose - which means they need money as an unproductive part of society. You know, those who just consume and spend but do not create new value.

Now as we stripped them off of any purpose why church even exists - let alone why do they take money from us who get up every morning to go to work - let's focus on the last yet most legit reason: socially accepted behavior. For that, we already have civic education, school system and parents who all teach you good manners. And even you failed to learn it, there's prisons and courts as well if you prefer that.

So what's the purpose of these vapor/fog sellers of nothingness whose empty gabs we listen for 2,000 years? They should ditch their profession and do something useful to pay back their own cost.
I agree, although I do have more of an issue with organized religion instead of religion / spiritualism. I also believe that after 2000 years, there's little left of anything that has to do with the person of Jesus Christ in the practice of Christianity. It's very hard to correctly interpretate those events.
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#7

Post by Lakigigar »

3eyes wrote: March 20th, 2021, 2:17 am Was it a hard decision to make? I'm guessing it was triggered by the Pope's recent pronouncement about LGBTs?

Were you actively involved with the church in any substantive way? I know the situation in Europe is much different from here. Religious community has always been a bulwark against isolation and alienation for me, though the road hasn't always been easy. Enough of that.

Anyway, :thumbsup: (I guess)
No, not a hard decision at all. Actually very impulsive since I didn't think about debaptizing before 30 minutes that i did send the e-mail, so very impulsive but no regrets at all.
And yes, it was triggered by that. I wasn't actively involved in the church, just a catholic in name only.
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#8

Post by Mario Gaborović »

I also believe that after 2000 years, there's little left of anything that has to do with the person of Jesus Christ in the practice of Christianity. It's very hard to correctly interpretate those events.
Those events never really happened, because there was no audiovisual proofs like HD camera, or even valid factography. It was all mouth-to-mouth and people as we know add it up; for example 'he could walk on the water's surface' was probably him standing near shore, but from a distance of say, 50m he surely looked to someone like hell of a surfer.

Don't fool yourself Lakigigar. Think better (and contemplate over!) a simple fact that humans prefer lie over truth, because lie is more attractive. Now fantasy is something we should keep for the bed and the movies, and not in real life - any false directions in life lead to endless wandering about, internal conflicts, disappointments etc.

As horrifying as it sounds, still more than a few people in 2021 are taking life principles from a book which is basically a fantasy collection of superstitious minds who didn't know for history, humanity, tolerance or even soap. :(

I'd like to draw a parable with the comment Robert Smith of Cure made about the Royal Family after he rejected the title of sir:
“Honestly, if I ever accepted, and I’m never going to get one, I would honestly cut off my own hands before I did that,” he said. “Because how dare they presume that they could give me an honour. I’m much better than them, they’ve never done anything, they’re fucking idiots.”

My advice to you is to look at authorities from a different angle, which is in 'mainstream' thinking QUITE OFTEN turned upside down.
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#9

Post by blocho »

I don't know much about Catholicism, so could someone explain this "debaptizing" a bit further? Most people I know who have given up on organized religion just stop doing the things involved in that religion. But this sounds more like some sort of formal resignation.
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#10

Post by Armoreska »

Thank you
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#11

Post by xianjiro »

Well for me, once baptized, one is a member of the church for life. Unlike voting, where if you don't vote for a given span of time, you get dropped from the rolls; with some churches, you stay on the books forever. So I asked that my name be removed, which is basically a formal resignation and separation which invalidates the sacramental covenants of baptism. And while baptism actually involved full emersion and a laying on of the hands, both important Christian rituals that are administered differently depending on a sect's practices, there is no corresponding ceremony to remove these covenants. Actually though, I believe one is supposed to meet with a church leader, you know, like when you call customer service to cancel cell or cable and they try talk you out of it, but I made it very clear in an email why I decided to leave and that I had nothing to discuss.

Remember too that a number of religious organization have disciplinary measures, the most severe of which is excommunication. It's pretty much the same thing - covenants are cancelled, some sects add shunning, if there is a lay ministry one can no longer take part, etc. I know it doesn't sound like much, but with "true believers" its very meaningful.
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#12

Post by Lakigigar »

Mario Gaborović wrote: March 20th, 2021, 10:46 am
I also believe that after 2000 years, there's little left of anything that has to do with the person of Jesus Christ in the practice of Christianity. It's very hard to correctly interpretate those events.
Those events never really happened, because there was no audiovisual proofs like HD camera, or even valid factography. It was all mouth-to-mouth and people as we know add it up; for example 'he could walk on the water's surface' was probably him standing near shore, but from a distance of say, 50m he surely looked to someone like hell of a surfer.

Don't fool yourself Lakigigar. Think better (and contemplate over!) a simple fact that humans prefer lie over truth, because lie is more attractive. Now fantasy is something we should keep for the bed and the movies, and not in real life - any false directions in life lead to endless wandering about, internal conflicts, disappointments etc.

As horrifying as it sounds, still more than a few people in 2021 are taking life principles from a book which is basically a fantasy collection of superstitious minds who didn't know for history, humanity, tolerance or even soap. :(

I'd like to draw a parable with the comment Robert Smith of Cure made about the Royal Family after he rejected the title of sir:
“Honestly, if I ever accepted, and I’m never going to get one, I would honestly cut off my own hands before I did that,” he said. “Because how dare they presume that they could give me an honour. I’m much better than them, they’ve never done anything, they’re fucking idiots.”

My advice to you is to look at authorities from a different angle, which is in 'mainstream' thinking QUITE OFTEN turned upside down.
Oh yes, but I know that. I mean "he could walk on the water's surface" is not what happened for real, but it is a glorification of what happened, a metaphor, an allegory. It's not a lie. It's just was very common to overglorify events, that's something you see with factual historical source evidence too. That's just the way it is, even today you still see it but to much lesser extent, but even journalists still do it, and people also put things out of context and create their own story out of it.

If you tell a story to your neighbour, and that neighbour repeats it to his neigbour, and after like 12 different neighbours each independently heard the story and retold it to their neighbours, and the last neighbour will have the job to repeat the story to you, you'll know that the story is completely different, and that's what happens in religion too.

We also don't know who the person Jesus Christ was, what his intentions were, and name it. Perhaps he was mentally ill, but was very charismatic and kind, but he might've been psychotic or had megalomonia. You don't know. But similar to cults of today, they might have had a following and that's how the story survived, just like legends and sages do. Because in essence, the story of Jesus is a legend or sage.

Christianity (and other religions, mainly the organized ones and the Abrahamic ones) have been used, especially during medieval ages to oppress the population. Like, La Passion de Jeanne D'Arc actually gets deeper into that. The problem is that religion gets glorified too, and has way too much influence on our society. If people asked: why am i farmer and why are you a noble", he'll answer: "it's because God wanted that". I just hate that wording. God and religion were used to explain things, but also to hide shortcomings, prevents fairer ways of life, prevent much-needed revolutions in the past, prevent progress.

To some extent, the medieval age is actually another "dark age". And it coincides with the onset of Christianity. When Christianity got more & more widespread, the Roman Empire collapsed, and i'm sorry the Romans were far more productive and intellectual than anyone that comes behind, partly because there was much more deception among the higher classes, and because the lower classes weren't lame ducks. Climate change, corruption among elites also contribute to the demise of the Roman Empire. Also, during that age, it is very hard to maintain such a large empire and facing all your threatening neighbours, it's almost a miracle the Roman Empire lasted as long for what it would.

In the medieval ages, they see Vikings as heathens or barbaric, but i see them actually as more advanced as the early Frankish empire(s) / English kingdom and part of it was because they were pagan, but i tend to love pagan cultures (and neopagan cultures).
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#13

Post by Lakigigar »

I think i love paganism and neopaganism, while I strongly dislike all Abrahamic and perhaps monotheistic religions. I however strongly like eastern philosophy / spiritualism and what you can call religion, but i'm not sure if all of it should be called a religion. So you can say i love all of East Asia, all the Nordic countries and philosophies and all the pre-Columbian civilizations (but the latter because there is more mystery in them, because they're strongly mistreated and because they're absolutely fascinating as those cultures evolved for a large part independently from other nations, although there was probably still contact with them, but before the Pharaonic culture started to emerge (Old Egypt). Not later. But there was probably some contact more at the end of last Glacial Age (and probably after the Young Dryas as well), because they seem to have shared the same knowledge in terms of some nature disasters that must have implied they had contact at some point. Also the story of Atlantis suggest that, because it's obvious that Atlantis is North America, as they didn't know that the Earth was round, and so thought there was something there or knew and the floods seem kinda obvious too (there are some candidates for megatsunami's 10.000 years ago coinciding with the demise of the Clovis culture), which also is the origin of all the "major flood stories".
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#14

Post by xianjiro »

As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
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#15

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xianjiro wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
Not to mention Gozer the Gozerian. I'd hate to see more Shuvs and Zuuls suffer.
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#16

Post by Armoreska »

xianjiro wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
This is absolutely uncalled for. I know a Baal worshipper and she's much nicer than you imagine.
B's just misunderstood due to unflattering portrayals in videogames.
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#17

Post by xianjiro »

Armoreska wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 10:48 pm
xianjiro wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
This is absolutely uncalled for. I know a Baal worshipper and she's much nicer than you imagine.
B's just misunderstood due to unflattering portrayals in videogames.
Well, most of it's fine with me (and has nothing to do with videogames), but I draw the line at
At times, appeasing Baal required human sacrifice, usually the firstborn of the one making the sacrifice (Jeremiah 19:5).
- source

Who wants to sign on to a religion (nowadays) where, "Got a problem? Then kill your firstborn and all will be right."
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#18

Post by Armoreska »

Oh that's the old Baal, forget him. Nowadays, Bael is all the rage.
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and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
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#19

Post by xianjiro »

Baal got a makeover and a reboot?
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#20

Post by metaller »

As a raised roman catholic in Germany, I did that over 15 years ago.
But for me the reason was much more profane.
I'm an atheist since my teens (hasn't changed since), and when you start to earn money and are a registrered catholic (the same is treu for ltuherans and some other churches), you have to pay church tax. For sure I wasn't willing to pay tax for a church I don't believe in.
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#21

Post by blocho »

metaller wrote: March 25th, 2021, 4:27 pm As a raised roman catholic in Germany, I did that over 15 years ago.
But for me the reason was much more profane.
I'm an atheist since my teens (hasn't changed since), and when you start to earn money and are a registrered catholic (the same is treu for ltuherans and some other churches), you have to pay church tax. For sure I wasn't willing to pay tax for a church I don't believe in.
I have to confess my ignorance again, so help me out: Your post suggests that there's some government liaison with religion. What does it mean to be a registered catholic? Is that just the church's own registry or some government registry? And how does the church have the authority to collect this tax? Is this different from tithing? Are people prohibited from participating in church activities if they haven't paid this tax?
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#22

Post by xianjiro »

yeah, this is one of those real mind-benders for Americans: we are so committed to separation of church and state that we can't imagine how such things happen, but this isn't the first I've heard of it. Maybe St G talked about it many, many moons ago?
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#23

Post by Lakigigar »

xianjiro wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
Why so much averse from Aztec religion. Still superior to Abrahamic religions.
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#24

Post by Armoreska »

Lakigigar wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:47 am
xianjiro wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
Why so much averse from Aztec religion. Still superior to Abrahamic religions.
Maybe X singles out the issue of overt human sacrifices. :unsure:
Then again if they reformed that by now as well as the abrahams, it'd probably be better.
he or A. or Armo or any

Image
currently working towards a vegan/free world + thru such film lists: GODARD, r/antinatalism recommends,..
the rest
ANARCHISTS, ANIMAL RIGHTS, Assisted suicide, Existential films, SOCIALIST CINEMA (an amalgamation of lists), Feminist lists, various GSSRM lists (aka LGBTQ+), 2010s bests, Visual Effects nominees, kid-related stuff, great animes (mini-serie or feature), very 80s movies, mah huge sci-fi list, ENVIRO, remarkable Silent Films and Pre-Code (exploring 1925 atm) and every shorts and docu list I'm aware of and
/forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1434
and "Gordon" Liu Chia-Hui/Liu Chia-Liang and Yuen Woo-ping and "Sammo" Hung Kam-bo
imaginary awards | youtube channels | complaint lounge | explain how big a fan of slavery you are here, ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1535 and here: ..viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4484
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#25

Post by Lakigigar »

Armoreska wrote: March 27th, 2021, 2:14 am
Lakigigar wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:47 am
xianjiro wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:55 pm As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ...
Why so much averse from Aztec religion. Still superior to Abrahamic religions.
Maybe X singles out the issue of overt human sacrifices. :unsure:
Then again if they reformed that by now as well as the abrahams, it'd probably be better.
They likely would've reformed it.
But than again, it's just a matter of "cultural perspective" as well as "historic perspective".
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#26

Post by xianjiro »

Lakigigar wrote: March 27th, 2021, 2:33 am
Armoreska wrote: March 27th, 2021, 2:14 am
Lakigigar wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:47 am

Why so much averse from Aztec religion. Still superior to Abrahamic religions.
Maybe X singles out the issue of overt human sacrifices. :unsure:
Then again if they reformed that by now as well as the abrahams, it'd probably be better.
They likely would've reformed it.
But than again, it's just a matter of "cultural perspective" as well as "historic perspective".
... at the re-consecration of Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs sacrificed about 80,400 prisoners over the course of four days. This number is considered by Ross Hassig, author of Aztec Warfare, to be an exaggeration. Hassig states "between 10,000 and 80,400 persons" were sacrificed in the ceremony.
Michael Harner, in his 1977 article The Enigma of Aztec Sacrifice, cited an estimate by Borah of the number of persons sacrificed in central Mexico in the 15th century as high as 250,000 per year which may have been one percent of the population.
Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxochitl, a Mexica descendant and the author of Codex Ixtlilxochitl, estimated that one in five children of the Mexica subjects was killed annually. Victor Davis Hanson argues that a claim by Don Carlos Zumárraga of 20,000 per annum is "more plausible".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sac ... ec_culture

Imagine, end of May 1940, 200,000 captured Belgian soldiers having their still beating hearts cut out of their chests on the alter of Hitler's glory. Nothing says victory like genocide and for all intents and purposes, this is what the Aztecs did when they conquered a tribe. There are even reports that the blood flowed down the steps of the temple pyramids. Maybe Manneken Pis could have be re-engineered so it looked like he was pissing blood. :thumbsup:

I'm not excited when practitioners of Candomblé sacrifice chickens. I would be appalled if the neighborhood Ba'al temple started sacrificing babies to put an end to Covid. I'm equally disgusted by the cannibalistic overtones of "eating the body" and "drinking the blood" of the Lord and Savior. :yucky: Nope, no interest in any religion that ritualizes the death of those either unwilling or unable to consent. If folks want to volunteer, that's their business, but count me out.
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#27

Post by metaller »

blocho wrote: March 26th, 2021, 8:50 pm
metaller wrote: March 25th, 2021, 4:27 pm As a raised roman catholic in Germany, I did that over 15 years ago.
But for me the reason was much more profane.
I'm an atheist since my teens (hasn't changed since), and when you start to earn money and are a registrered catholic (the same is treu for ltuherans and some other churches), you have to pay church tax. For sure I wasn't willing to pay tax for a church I don't believe in.
I have to confess my ignorance again, so help me out: Your post suggests that there's some government liaison with religion. What does it mean to be a registered catholic? Is that just the church's own registry or some government registry? And how does the church have the authority to collect this tax? Is this different from tithing? Are people prohibited from participating in church activities if they haven't paid this tax?
I might be wrong, but I think in general that practive goes back 100 years. Basically the two big churches (catholic and lutheran) made a contract with the govt so that the govt collects a mandatory tax for members of said communities, while keeping a bit of that tax for themselves. I don't know how it compares to tithing. It depends on the different federal states how much you pay exactly. But I think it's something like 8 percent-ish of your income tax. I just entered it into a calculator. If you make 2000 € before tax, you're church tax would be 13 €.
And the tax is automatically deducted from your monthly wage payments, like all taxes here, so there is no option to not pay tax. Only by leaving the church.
I don't know how it works for self-employed people.

I'm not a 100 percent on the way how you become officially a member. It's either that with your baptism the church registers you and the register goes towards the state or if the state automatically at birth registeres you with the denomination of your parents.

When I deregistered (which is in german catholicism the same as debaptism), I went to my local city council for a form, paid something like 20€ and then it went on its way. I got a letter form the church if I really want to quit, they'd like me to stay and what are my reasons, but you don't have to answer that. That was the whole process.

Officially I can't get catholic church rites anymore. No wedding at a catholic church, no funeral. Of course, I can go to a church and see the "show" if I want to, because no one checks at the gate and even then, church is still open to everyone. But no holy comunion for me too, officially.

Profanely, I know that it would be harder to get a job at a catholic institution (which is actually something to consider for nurses, or kindergarten teachers, cause a lot of those are run by catholic organizations here).
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#28

Post by Lakigigar »

xianjiro wrote: March 27th, 2021, 4:01 am
Lakigigar wrote: March 27th, 2021, 2:33 am
Armoreska wrote: March 27th, 2021, 2:14 am
Maybe X singles out the issue of overt human sacrifices. :unsure:
Then again if they reformed that by now as well as the abrahams, it'd probably be better.
They likely would've reformed it.
But than again, it's just a matter of "cultural perspective" as well as "historic perspective".
... at the re-consecration of Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan in 1487, the Aztecs sacrificed about 80,400 prisoners over the course of four days. This number is considered by Ross Hassig, author of Aztec Warfare, to be an exaggeration. Hassig states "between 10,000 and 80,400 persons" were sacrificed in the ceremony.
Michael Harner, in his 1977 article The Enigma of Aztec Sacrifice, cited an estimate by Borah of the number of persons sacrificed in central Mexico in the 15th century as high as 250,000 per year which may have been one percent of the population.
Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxochitl, a Mexica descendant and the author of Codex Ixtlilxochitl, estimated that one in five children of the Mexica subjects was killed annually. Victor Davis Hanson argues that a claim by Don Carlos Zumárraga of 20,000 per annum is "more plausible".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sac ... ec_culture

Imagine, end of May 1940, 200,000 captured Belgian soldiers having their still beating hearts cut out of their chests on the alter of Hitler's glory. Nothing says victory like genocide and for all intents and purposes, this is what the Aztecs did when they conquered a tribe. There are even reports that the blood flowed down the steps of the temple pyramids. Maybe Manneken Pis could have be re-engineered so it looked like he was pissing blood. :thumbsup:

I'm not excited when practitioners of Candomblé sacrifice chickens. I would be appalled if the neighborhood Ba'al temple started sacrificing babies to put an end to Covid. I'm equally disgusted by the cannibalistic overtones of "eating the body" and "drinking the blood" of the Lord and Savior. :yucky: Nope, no interest in any religion that ritualizes the death of those either unwilling or unable to consent. If folks want to volunteer, that's their business, but count me out.
Okay, so according to you native Americans do not have a single right to exist, their culture is vile, and what the Spanish did was much better when they thought the Aztecs were barbars, and went ahead to slaughter all of them off, because we think we were civilized and they weren't. Consider the perspective of everything, they had no INTERACTION with any other culture from the west, because their society evolved apart from ours (and aside of that, sacrifices were common in Europe too, like in Nordic cultures). And christianity has also blood on their hands, just to speak silent of pogroms, or what we've done to Native Americans or African-Americans or Afro-Latin Americans slaves, and all Africans. (like what Belgium did in Congo, where all hands were cut from Congolese slaves).

But sure we're superior to Aztecs, because of their sacrificies. Consider that Nazi-Germany slaughtered millions of people simply because they were a simple race, while the Aztecs slaughtered people to please their gods, partially because they were frightened. And the nazi's should've known better, they had a much bigger perspective than the Aztecs did.

What the Aztecs have done is way less evil, than what western cultures have done to Native American cultures. Remember that. And we slaughtered them because their religion didn't match with ours, because from a christian perspective they were pagans, they were barbars, they were lesser beings, not being worth it to live. Their culture had to be eradicated. I rate that genocide even worser than the nazi one.

We could learn a thing of two from them, instead of our superior way of thinking.
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#29

Post by Lakigigar »

The problem with humanity is:

1. we're unable to create long-term solutions. Especially democracy is critical of it. We have to please the will of the people, most of them being racist and sexist for sure. We can't do anything, because after four years, all have to be re-elected again, so they have to be popular and follow the will of the people, even if that is the wrong thing to do. Part of why we still haven't done anything towards climate change or our terrible environmental policies, is because a sizeable portion of the people don't want it, because they believe environmentalism is part of the deep state, or part of cultural marxists imposing their ideology on others. We can't do things that will benefit us on the long term, because short-term benefit is always prioritized because THEY HAVE TO BE RE-ELECTED. Short-term benefit for economy will matter more than long-term benefits, even if it will lead to the demise of this planet (which is a long foregone conclusion, and perhaps for the best).

2. Secondly, we lack perspective. We always think our way of thinking is best, depending on the bubble you've live in. Mostly it's a western infused left-way or right-wing kind of thinking, regardless of it being a right-wing populist, liberal centrist, traditionalist, conservative, socialist or communist. It doesn't matter, because we all live in our bubble, and human brains aren't being made to look from things at a distance, and see things through a different lens.

It's similar to how eyes are made. We are a predator. Some animals are herbivores. They have eyes that can see differently, so they have a wider vision but a less focused one. We have a smaller vision but a more focused one. Obviously we don't see what is happening on our sides, of from behind us. Different example: we aren't able to see carbondioxide, yet it is there. We can only measure it is there, but we can not taste, feel, hear, smell or see it. If we haven't our scientific methods, it just wouldn't be there, while it is there. Our senses trick us into thinking something isn't there while it is there and vice versa.

So does our brain work. We only reason what we want to reason. We only want to know what we want to know. And that happens unconsciously. Our brain will filter it. Our brain filters what is relevant to us to survive from what is not relevant. Your way of thinking reminds me of that again.

The most open-minded people are still at the end extremely close-minded if we look at things from a galactic perspective, and it influences our systems, our morals, our ethics and our way of thinking, and eventually this is what will lead to our downfall, according to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument, which is simple statistics, because you have to realize... why are they no aliens or extraterrestrial civilizations. Didn't they colonize our galaxy (that's 1), and secondly, why am i born now if humanity is destined to reach for the stars and beyond. Why do i not live in a few million years, but why am i some kind of pioneer? Perhaps it is because there is no future, so by simple chance i'm not a unique pioneer that lives among the first 0,01% of humans that will ever set foot in this galaxy, but more of someone who perhaps as someone who is part of a short-lived human spike in population (and be in the middle of it). A flash of intellectual civilization that destroys themselves, which seems to be universal around the galaxy, as through the same other reasoning, i can reason if there are millions of other extraterrestrial civilizations out there that have colonized thousands or millions of planets, that could be KII or KIII galactic civilizations, why i wouldn't be part of them, and why am i still a human. It seems extremely unlikely to be a human in that case.

It is actually a privilege to live in an uncolonized galaxy with no signs of intellectual life. It's a privilege, because the chance you're the sperm cell that will reach the uterus of your mother is even higher than the chance for this to occur, unless it is of course our fate, both in a good and a bad way.
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#30

Post by Lakigigar »

I don't believe in Judgment Day, or that God or Jesus will all return to Earth. That's bullshit. But what I do is simple math. Simple math.

And yes, if you don't believe it will happen, it already happened for pre-Columbian civilizations. ;) They were right about their doomsday (and perhaps they knew, which is why they did the sacrificies, at the end it didn't matter). Most got killed by the Spanish or died because of the diseases we brought to the new world.
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#31

Post by Armoreska »

:thumbsup:
I think multiple ideologies are well founded, as long as they're not just preserve-whatever-i-learned-in-kindergarten or basic egoism (especially when it tries to masquerade as something well-founded).
he or A. or Armo or any

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#32

Post by xianjiro »

Lakigigar wrote: March 27th, 2021, 1:33 pm [quote=xianjiro post_id=698566 time=1616817694 user_id=1130

I'm not excited when practitioners of Candomblé sacrifice chickens. I would be appalled if the neighborhood Ba'al temple started sacrificing babies to put an end to Covid. I'm equally disgusted by the cannibalistic overtones of "eating the body" and "drinking the blood" of the Lord and Savior. :yucky: Nope, no interest in any religion that ritualizes the death of those either unwilling or unable to consent. If folks want to volunteer, that's their business, but count me out.
Okay, so according to you native Americans do not have a single right to exist, their culture is vile, and what the Spanish did was much better when they thought the Aztecs were barbars, and went ahead to slaughter all of them off, because we think we were civilized and they weren't. ,,,[/quote]

Hmmm. Take a breath there Lakigigar.

You've jumped to a conclusion - granted one many do in this type of discussion - that is nothing like what I've written on numerous occasions on this forum. Maybe redigest the final paragraph I've left above.

I understand that religions are very important components to culture and it's probably difficult to separate Aztec religious practice from Aztec society and culture, but saying I don't want a revival of the Aztec religion is in no way an indication of disrespect for Native Americans/First Nations nor any sort of indication that I accepted or encourage cultural assimilation/cultural annihilation as practiced by European conquerors and colonizers. Yes, absolutely, the Spanish missionaries and Catholic Church probably have just as much blood on their hands and the actions of the US military at Sand Creek are as equally atrocious and repugnant to me as what the Nazi's did in their rampages.

Notice that I wrote, "I'm not excited when practitioners of Candomblé sacrifice chickens." The language is very specific. "Not excited" is quite different from something like writing "must be stomped out", no? I understand that sacrificing animals is still an accepted religious practice, but it's one I find personally troubling - much like FGM practiced in many parts of Africa and some of the Arab world.

Yes, some of these things can be reformed and when believers actually still practice the rituals and choose to find a different path - that doesn't require death or mutilation - that's a good thing. But it's something that they have to find for themselves because you are right, we aren't more civilized than they are. And honestly, as much as I detest animal sacrifice and FGM, I'm not going to campaign to wipe out the cultures or peoples who still choose such practices, but I do applaud "locals" (people connected to and part of these communities) who work to change these beliefs.

So no, saying, "As long as there isn't a drive to reinvigorate Baal worship or Aztec religion ..." has nothing to do with a notion of Abrahamic cultural superiority (as so often taught in the west. And btw, Ba'al worship is actually Semitic and related to religious practices that went on to make the monotheism that grew into Judiasm.) I also picked quotes that 1) showed there is widespread DISagreement on the extent of human sacrifice as practiced by the Aztecs and 2) includes an account that is NOT dependent on Europeans or their cultural biases.

But since we're on this topic, there is a big difference between learning from other cultures willingly and pretending to be something else (foreign) because it's "cool". Some have probably run across something to the extent, "My religious apparel isn't meant to be your Halloween costume." There's also a big difference between a serious interest in learning another culture's religious practice and acting like a _________ because it pisses off the Christian parental units. I'm convinced that some interest in "foreign" or "alien" religious practices are actually more closely related to the latter. "Nothing will piss my Lutheran father off more than if I become a Hare Krishna!"
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#33

Post by xianjiro »

Spoiler
metaller wrote: March 27th, 2021, 12:14 pm
blocho wrote: March 26th, 2021, 8:50 pm
metaller wrote: March 25th, 2021, 4:27 pm As a raised roman catholic in Germany, I did that over 15 years ago.
But for me the reason was much more profane.
I'm an atheist since my teens (hasn't changed since), and when you start to earn money and are a registrered catholic (the same is treu for ltuherans and some other churches), you have to pay church tax. For sure I wasn't willing to pay tax for a church I don't believe in.
I have to confess my ignorance again, so help me out: Your post suggests that there's some government liaison with religion. What does it mean to be a registered catholic? Is that just the church's own registry or some government registry? And how does the church have the authority to collect this tax? Is this different from tithing? Are people prohibited from participating in church activities if they haven't paid this tax?
I might be wrong, but I think in general that practive goes back 100 years. Basically the two big churches (catholic and lutheran) made a contract with the govt so that the govt collects a mandatory tax for members of said communities, while keeping a bit of that tax for themselves. I don't know how it compares to tithing. It depends on the different federal states how much you pay exactly. But I think it's something like 8 percent-ish of your income tax. I just entered it into a calculator. If you make 2000 € before tax, you're church tax would be 13 €.
And the tax is automatically deducted from your monthly wage payments, like all taxes here, so there is no option to not pay tax. Only by leaving the church.
I don't know how it works for self-employed people.

I'm not a 100 percent on the way how you become officially a member. It's either that with your baptism the church registers you and the register goes towards the state or if the state automatically at birth registeres you with the denomination of your parents.

When I deregistered (which is in german catholicism the same as debaptism), I went to my local city council for a form, paid something like 20€ and then it went on its way. I got a letter form the church if I really want to quit, they'd like me to stay and what are my reasons, but you don't have to answer that. That was the whole process.

Officially I can't get catholic church rites anymore. No wedding at a catholic church, no funeral. Of course, I can go to a church and see the "show" if I want to, because no one checks at the gate and even then, church is still open to everyone. But no holy comunion for me too, officially.

Profanely, I know that it would be harder to get a job at a catholic institution (which is actually something to consider for nurses, or kindergarten teachers, cause a lot of those are run by catholic organizations here).
thanks for the info, metaller! :cheers:
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#34

Post by Lakigigar »

The thing is

What is the difference between an Islamophobe and an Aztecophobe? To me they're both the same. It sounds a bit hypocrite.
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#35

Post by mjf314 »

Lakigigar wrote: March 28th, 2021, 3:23 pm The thing is

What is the difference between an Islamophobe and an Aztecophobe? To me they're both the same. It sounds a bit hypocrite.
I'm not much of an expert on either religion, but I just looked up Aztec religion on Wikipedia, and human sacrifice (aka murder) seems to be an important part of the religion (it's mentioned in the 2nd sentence). Hating a religion that condones murder seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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#36

Post by xianjiro »

Lakigigar wrote: March 28th, 2021, 3:23 pm The thing is

What is the difference between an Islamophobe and an Aztecophobe? To me they're both the same. It sounds a bit hypocrite.
how about extant vs extinct?

How many Muslims have you met? How many Aztecs? Though that isn't actually an identifier of a religious affiliation (that was mostly if not completely exterminated during the Spanish conquest), Aztecs were, and some still say are, a group of Native American Nahua (largely) peoples who lived in (and conquered) central Mexico. Believe it or not, I've actually known people who do have a strong affinity for Aztec culture and wave it like any other banner of pride, but unlike Maya culture which 'disappeared' into the forests of the "Mayan Triangle" and continued on in folk culture to the present, I've not been aware of anyone actually being able to keep Aztec customs alive to the same degree. Clearly an important difference is the Spanish built their capitol on top of the Aztec city whereas Mayan descendants were well beyond the interest of conquistadors for some period due to a lack of accumulated wealth (of the Aztec rulers). However, I ate Aztec food yesterday and it's a frequent part of my diet - most people don't realize that corn tortillas (and the chips made from them) are actually an Aztec invention that is still a vital part of Mexican culture. So yes, Aztec culture has survived to a degree but it's been diffused into a broader Mexican cultural context in a way that Mayan or Tarahumaran traditions have not.

So, to get back to your question, I have stated I am unattracted by or even opposed to the concept of actual sacrifice of living beings for ritual purposes. That is what I am opposed to and would not welcome the reinstatement of, however for all intents and purposes, that's only hypothetical. I've got no problems with people praying to Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, or any of the Aztec pantheon. Honestly, I could care less if they actively believed the mythology - that's their business and I feel the same about people who believe the Christian and Islamic mythologies as well. And while I dislike the Candomblé practice of animal sacrifice, I recognize that it's part of their religious practice and animal sacrifice has been part of human religious practice probably predating recorded history. It's there. I don't like it. I wouldn't want to take part in such a ceremony if it were offered to me. I even know of circumstances were a similar practice has been conducted by Mexican curanderos - a practice whose origins might derive from Aztec religion and probably have little to no influence from African religious traditions. However, I stop short of calling for it to be made illegal or for practitioners to be persecuted or prosecuted for the actual practice or promotion of such practices in theory.

I know of no cultural tradition that has continued a practice of human sacrifice to the present though there are tales of Satanic rites being preformed around the planet. If the target is a willing participant in the ritual, I basically shrug but realize that if the actors are known they will likely face prosecution for murder. And thus, any attempt to reinvigorate an extinct religious tradition which included human sacrifice would also be little more than ritualized murder. This is what I feel would be wrong and is undesirable. And guess what! In most places murder is actually against the laws and social mores (though clearly some places view it as excusable if done in self-defense).

Armo clearly understood my reference since both Ba'al worship and Aztec religious practices involved ritualized human sacrifice. If human sacrifice is repudiated for current religious practice in either tradition, I say they can knock themselves out, believe what they want, and practice whatever rituals they desire. It's their business, not mine.

So exactly how does that make me an Aztecaphobe?

And on the subject of Islam: I don't support all the beliefs of some factions of the faith, but I recognize it's an important part of many people's belief systems. Again, it's their business and as long as they are living within the local laws - note, I don't say customs because clearly Islamic customs are different from the accepted cultural practices of most Christian countries - so as long as they are doing their own thing, I think it's perfectly acceptable to respect their right to freedom of religion. That doesn't mean I like some of the customs and, for example, I'd vote against an attempt to REQUIRE that ALL women, regardless of their religion, wear a burqa IN MY STATE or the US. However, I believe strongly that women have the right to choose to wear a burqa, chador, or hijab if that's what they want to do (in the US). What they do in their own countries is much more clearly their business. I don't like that in some countries women must dress a certain way, but I'm also not thrilled that some countries collect taxes to fund churches, but again, that's their business: I wouldn't support a ban on German immigration to the US because I fear they'd want to replicate that system here. That would be Germanophobic.

But if one says something like, "All Islamic men are macho, chauvinistic, and sexist." That would strike me as being "Islamophobic". Likewise I would view calls to close all mosques, jail imams, or deport believers of Islam as Islamophobic. However, if an imam uses a mosque to incite followers to acts of terrorism in my country, then I'd say they should face whatever prosecution would also apply to Neonazi leader calling on followers to attack immigrants or Christian preachers calling on believers to do whatever is necessary to protect unborn babies (hint: bomb clinics and shot doctors). These are criminal acts. Belief that there is only one God and Muhammed is His Prophet is not criminal.
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#37

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Lol what the hell did this thread turn into
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#38

Post by OldAle1 »

Pretentious Hipster wrote: March 28th, 2021, 9:54 pm Lol what the hell did this thread turn into
Eh, I can't say I'm surprised. The title is pretty leading...
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