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Moderation and politics discussion

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Pretentious Hipster
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#121

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:01 pm
Pretentious Hipster wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:55 pm Still, a president doing a coup at his own country might be a first.
It isn't.
I'm actually curious now. I assume I missed some from the civil war era? I know there are presidents in other countries like Erdogan, but I was referring to US presidents.
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#122

Post by kongs_speech »

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:58 pm
kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:49 pm I will say that I was genuinely angry and uncomfortable with some of the "lol it's not a big deal" posts from people who live on other continents. If you're not actively dealing with the toxicity of Trumpism every day, you don't really understand the issue and should be careful when voicing an opinion. While perhaps less insidious in nature, it's the same basic concept as mansplaining sexual assault or telling black people that racism doesn't exist.
Yes. But I think some people are also from places that are, or have recently been, worse than the USA politically, have worse human rights records than the Trump admin, and so they think, eh, you're not so badly off. And maybe deep down they're thinking 'you deserve this you shits, to go through what we've gone through" or in some cases, "to go through something like what your country has done to us". I mean, if we had any progressive Iranian or Filipino posters here for example I would not be surprised to see them say you reap what you sow, and maybe that's justified. That still doesn't make it kosher to say "oh who cares fuck u Amerikkka" IMO, and I don't think I'd personally say it to, say, a British person if something similar happened in London tomorrow, but I can understand the sentiments.
Yeah, I definitely agree with you on all of this. However, while I don't know exactly where everyone on the forum lives, it seems like the comments I'm referring to came primarily from users in relatively well-off European countries, which strikes me more as pouring salt in the wound than any sort of righteous indignation. I especially got tired of seeing embedded tweets from edgelord reporters.
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PeacefulAnarchy
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#123

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Pretentious Hipster wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:04 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:01 pm
Pretentious Hipster wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:55 pm Still, a president doing a coup at his own country might be a first.
It isn't.
I'm actually curious now. I assume I missed some from the civil war era? I know there are presidents in other countries like Erdogan, but I was referring to US presidents.
Oh I thought you meant in general, not US specifically. I don't think it has happened in the US, but I can't say for sure.

Anyway, this isn't the thread for that discussion.
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#124

Post by Onderhond »

kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:49 pm If you're not actively dealing with the toxicity of Trumpism every day, you don't really understand the issue and should be careful when voicing an opinion.
As if there's a way to escape that, even when not living in America. Americans will make sure everyone's involved in their domestic issues.
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#125

Post by kongs_speech »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:18 pm
kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:49 pm If you're not actively dealing with the toxicity of Trumpism every day, you don't really understand the issue and should be careful when voicing an opinion.
As if there's a way to escape that, even when not living in America. Americans will make sure everyone's involved in their domestic issues.
I mean, a thread entitled "US Politics Thread" is going to primarily consist of US politics, yeah.
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#126

Post by AdamH »

Please can we not turn this thread into another political debate. There are other threads for that.
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#127

Post by OldAle1 »

Pretentious Hipster wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:04 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:01 pm
Pretentious Hipster wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:55 pm Still, a president doing a coup at his own country might be a first.
It isn't.
I'm actually curious now. I assume I missed some from the civil war era? I know there are presidents in other countries like Erdogan, but I was referring to US presidents.
Peaceful's right that this isn't the best place for it (maybe in the general non-country-specific Politics thread?) but this kind of shit goes on all the time in not-quite-democracies; the most significant recent example is probably Belarus. Problem is you can't trust the election results, polling, or anything else very much because Lukashenko has much more control than any American Pres has ever had, and he's controlled all the levers of power and media for over 25 years. A really direct comparison - a generally free/fair democracy where the incumbent has tried to stay in power through a coup attempt? I dunno. Somebody probably knows this stuff better than I do, I'm sure there's an example out there. If I think of anything I'll share it in the politics thread.

EDIT - I just posted something in the Political Lounge.
Last edited by OldAle1 on January 11th, 2021, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#128

Post by Onderhond »

kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm I mean, a thread entitled "US Politics Thread" is going to primarily consist of US politics, yeah.
Sure, but I'm referring to all the mentions outside of that thread. Or non-political websites. We have a thread for UK politics too, they're not going through a fun period either, but at least you don't see weird Boris jabs popping up in unrelated threads.

(which is in fact a statement about moderation, not about politics)
Last edited by Onderhond on January 11th, 2021, 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#129

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:18 pm
kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:49 pm If you're not actively dealing with the toxicity of Trumpism every day, you don't really understand the issue and should be careful when voicing an opinion.
As if there's a way to escape that, even when not living in America. Americans will make sure everyone's involved in their domestic issues.
I mean, a thread entitled "US Politics Thread" is going to primarily consist of US politics, yeah.
I think the underlying question is this: Why does the US politics thread often consist primarily of people who are neither citizens nor residents of the US?
On the one hand it's frustrating because distance means they don't have to deal with the real fallout of what the US's bad politics result in, especially on the domestic side. On the other hand, the US has a long reach. It invades countries, it interferes with their politics, it is an economic powerhouse that influences policy in small and big ways throughout the world, and its politics are in the news regularly in other countries. So not going into the US politics thread isn't a way to not have to deal with US politics to those of us outside the US.

Even besides people having clashing political opinions, part of the problem with the US politics thread is that posters have different priorities and criticisms of the US as a country, and even two ideologically aligned posters are going to view events and actions through a lens of "I'm in the US this is my life" vs "I'm not in the US, this is not my life." If you read discussions, elsewhere, about other countries, the same thing applies. People are much more dismissive and ideological about things whose effect on them is mostly through reverberating precedents and global shifts, than those that affect their daily lives. If we all suddenly decided to start talking about X African country and its politics we'd be seeing it much more through an ideological lens because in the end the specific day to day is not for us to deal with.
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#130

Post by xianjiro »

I've so lost my place :angry:
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#131

Post by xianjiro »

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 7:54 pm
xianjiro wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 7:19 pm

There was a recent exchange that I considered but chose not to report since 1) the two users clearly have "bad blood" and 2) the exchange flared and died rather quickly - like 5 posts max and 3) I thought both users quite capable of reporting the other if they felt sufficiently aggrieved. While I don't like to go to STFU, I get that it has it's place used sparingly and not everyone can always be diplomatic in their very real anger. So if their exchange bordered on that, didn't pull anyone else in, etc - I figure it's like two coworkers having a bad day in the office. Once in a blue moon, no big deal. It happens. Move on. Nothing to see here folks.
Was that the one a few months ago on.. I think a rankdown thread.. where I told cinewest to fuck off? It certainly could have been, and honestly I expected some admonishment or to have that post deleted, after I thought about it for a few minutes.
nope, didn't involve you, and happened in the last week. Adam is familiar with the exchange I referenced obliquely above
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#132

Post by Onderhond »

Teproc wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:17 pm If Onderhond or whomever thinks that's bad for my personal development, I would kindly suggest that I'm the better judge of that, and the same holds true for anyone on the forum.
While I'm not suggesting people shouldn't make their own choices, I think that there's plenty of proof that many aren't really capable of choosing the things that make them happy. Otherwise a lot more people would be actually happy in life.
Teproc wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:17 pm The ignore function does no harm to anyone as long as we're not openly discussing who we are ignoring, so I think it is quite a useful tool for some (like OldAle and me) and a completely ignorable (hah) element of the forum for those who do not find it useful.
I'd say it would do less harm if it was transparent (but maybe I'm putting too much trust in people there). It's surely a very annoying idea that one might spend time and effort writing a post to someone who is actively ignoring you. I honestly don't understand how that can be the basis of a healthy forum/community.
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#133

Post by xianjiro »

kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 8:49 pm I will say that I was genuinely angry and uncomfortable with some of the "lol it's not a big deal" posts from people who live on other continents. If you're not actively dealing with the toxicity of Trumpism every day, you don't really understand the issue and should be careful when voicing an opinion. While perhaps less insidious in nature, it's the same basic concept as mansplaining sexual assault or telling black people that racism doesn't exist.
this comes up from time to time and borderline racist posts from European members really set me to fire.

One thing though, everyone around the world has a right to concerned by American politics since what happens in the US doesn't stay in the US (only Vegas). Our insanity impacts everyone, so I (now) get that and cut some slack, but that doesn't excuse users who troll the thread to see what response they will get. But again, this isn't often the case, as in many users, more like one or two users doing it fairly regularly.

However, I am wondering how often this kind of bad blood spills over to other parts of the forum. I can say from my own experience I don't even reply to any posts by one user simply because that user pissed me off big time last year. Doesn't even have to be remotely related to the incident in question (and no, nothing to do with politics, unless we mean IMCF politics). So yes, I can see how a bad experience in the toxic threads can cause a ripple effect to other parts of the forum.
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#134

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:58 pm
Teproc wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:17 pm The ignore function does no harm to anyone as long as we're not openly discussing who we are ignoring, so I think it is quite a useful tool for some (like OldAle and me) and a completely ignorable (hah) element of the forum for those who do not find it useful.
I'd say it would do less harm if it was transparent (but maybe I'm putting too much trust in people there). It's surely a very annoying idea that one might spend time and effort writing a post to someone who is actively ignoring you. I honestly don't understand how that can be the basis of a healthy forum/community.
You absolutely are putting too much trust if you think a transparent ignore function would not be an unmitigated disaster in most forums. If you're replying within a conversation then the person isn't ignoring you, if you're replying in general then even if that person is ignoring you most others aren't, and without an ignore function they'd still likely be ignoring you and not reading your posts. There are some edge cases where what you say can happen, but it's quite rare.
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#135

Post by xianjiro »

and even if you are ignoring someone and someone else quotes them - guess what, you see their quoted post of your ignored user
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#136

Post by Onderhond »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:07 pm You absolutely are putting too much trust if you think a transparent ignore function would not be an unmitigated disaster in most forums.
I'm not sure why people keep involving other forums though, this discussion is about ICMF, no? Yes, on places like Reddit, 4Chan and other I can see it being functional. Not here though.
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:07 pm If you're replying within a conversation then the person isn't ignoring you, if you're replying in general then even if that person is ignoring you most others aren't, and without an ignore function they'd still likely be ignoring you and not reading your posts. There are some edge cases where what you say can happen, but it's quite rare.
Maybe I simply don't get how it works (because I've never used it), so do correct me if I'm not getting the function right. But if someone makes a remark, I reply to it and he's ignoring me, he won't see the reply, right? Maybe there's an exception for explicit quotes, but that means that you should be quoting everything you reply to.
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#137

Post by OldAle1 »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:58 pm
Teproc wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:17 pm If Onderhond or whomever thinks that's bad for my personal development, I would kindly suggest that I'm the better judge of that, and the same holds true for anyone on the forum.
While I'm not suggesting people shouldn't make their own choices, I think that there's plenty of proof that many aren't really capable of choosing the things that make them happy. Otherwise a lot more people would be actually happy in life.
Teproc wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 6:17 pm The ignore function does no harm to anyone as long as we're not openly discussing who we are ignoring, so I think it is quite a useful tool for some (like OldAle and me) and a completely ignorable (hah) element of the forum for those who do not find it useful.
I'd say it would do less harm if it was transparent (but maybe I'm putting too much trust in people there). It's surely a very annoying idea that one might spend time and effort writing a post to someone who is actively ignoring you. I honestly don't understand how that can be the basis of a healthy forum/community.
Well, this is where I'd say you're being the kind of childish that you're accusing others of being - and I'm aware you didn't use the word childish, I just don't feel like going all the way through this thread to find it, or to find other examples. Maybe it's because you're so consistently negative towards others' tastes and so regularly the only person with a particular attitude about something; maybe this causes you to have less sympathy or tolerance for those of us who DON'T WANT TO FIGHT ALL THE TIME and also don't want to see people who are routinely nasty or lying about shit. I don't know. But sorry, sometimes you are going to write a long post, and sometimes it's going to be ignored, and I'm not sure why it matters whether you know that somebody has you on ignore? It's something I'm used to frankly - there are a couple of people here who either have me on ignore, or just don't like me or think I'm useless, they never, ever, ever respond to anything I write on threads they start or posts of theirs I reply to. So I've largely given up on them but hey, so what? If it's something really important that I wanted to write, I'll find somewhere else to post it or something similar. And I guess I'm pretty used to being ignored and generally despised in general at this point. Maybe this is the only place where you get that treatment, if so you're really lucky.

But TBH I wouldn't be averse to knowing who's ignoring me, and heck I'll even post my ignore list if somebody wants me to. I took one person off it at the beginning of the year, because he's not a bad guy IMO just someone who rubs me the wrong way (and vice versa I'm sure). And if you don't like the whole idea of ignore then I suggest you might start ignoring - without computer help - those of us who do like it. Make yourself a Free Speech Forever warrior, have at it.
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#138

Post by kongs_speech »

I don't have negative feelings towards you and don't mean this disrespectfully at all, but it's weird to care this much about stopping other people from doing something that makes them more comfortable.
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#139

Post by OldAle1 »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:11 pm

Maybe I simply don't get how it works (because I've never used it), so do correct me if I'm not getting the function right. But if someone makes a remark, I reply to it and he's ignoring me, he won't see the reply, right? Maybe there's an exception for explicit quotes, but that means that you should be quoting everything you reply to.
You always see the names of everybody posting, but if you're ignoring them you just see their name, and have to click on the post to see it. So yeah, I can ignore your reply to me, but I won't in fact know that you're replying to me, and not posting something completely unrelated. I guess that's kind of a downside but I can live with it.
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#140

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:11 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:07 pm If you're replying within a conversation then the person isn't ignoring you, if you're replying in general then even if that person is ignoring you most others aren't, and without an ignore function they'd still likely be ignoring you and not reading your posts. There are some edge cases where what you say can happen, but it's quite rare.
Maybe I simply don't get how it works (because I've never used it), so do correct me if I'm not getting the function right. But if someone makes a remark, I reply to it and he's ignoring me, he won't see the reply, right? Maybe there's an exception for explicit quotes, but that means that you should be quoting everything you reply to.
Note, I don't have you (or anyone) on ignore, I just put you on ignore to take this screenshot
Spoiler
Image
You still see that the person has replied, you can click their name to see their reply and they still show up in quotes. Some people don't use it for ignore so much as a reminder to themselves to not get worked up.
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#141

Post by Torgo »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 9:58 pm I'd say it would do less harm if it was transparent (but maybe I'm putting too much trust in people there).
People who propose this also liked:
- Perfect Stranger (2016)
- The Purge (2013)
- The Civil War (1990)

Yeah sorry but nope, that's just not a good idea, really.
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#142

Post by Onderhond »

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:13 pm I don't know. But sorry, sometimes you are going to write a long post, and sometimes it's going to be ignored, and I'm not sure why it matters whether you know that somebody has you on ignore?
Well, sometimes I go to the shop because I want soup, and it won't have soup. That sucks of course, but that's just bad luck. When I know the shop doesn't have soup though, I'll save myself the trouble of going there, seeing as that's a complete waste of effort.

Don't agree at all with the rest or your characterization (I'm not negative towards other people's tastes - they're just different, nor do I like to fight all the time, I'm also fine with no reactions if nobody has anything meaningful to add), but going into that will just take it a bit too far off-topic.
kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:13 pm but it's weird to care this much about stopping other people from doing something that makes them more comfortable.
Imo, joining a community comes with responsibilities too. It's only normal to care as a healthier community benefits everyone, including me.
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:19 pm You still see that the person has replied, you can click their name to see their reply and they still show up in quotes. Some people don't use it for ignore so much as a reminder to themselves to not get worked up.
Myeah, I don't think that's okay to be honest, but fair enough if people here can't live without it.
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#143

Post by OldAle1 »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:19 pm Some people don't use it for ignore so much as a reminder to themselves to not get worked up.
That is part of it for me, and I've put a few people on ignore for a week or two in the past because I was in such a pissy mood.

I think O and others also need to realize that for those of us coming from IMDb or other really toxic places, it's a different thing than those who never had to deal with deluges of trolls. And some of us have trolls in real life to deal with. Then again some people never seem bothered at all and laugh it off even if they're being insulted or getting death/doxx threads multiple times every day. Everybody's got a different standard of tolerance.
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#144

Post by kongs_speech »

I'm just not really seeing the supposed problem with the ignore list function. If you typed something in reply to someone who has you on ignore, worst case scenario, you wasted a few minutes. Everyone on this forum has wasted a lot more time than that watching bad movies for checks. It's not the end of the world. Besides, someone else might reply to your comment, and then you've still got the conversation you desired.
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#145

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:28 pm nor do I like to fight all the time
lol - yeah, you told me so just last week (or was it the week before?) ;)
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#146

Post by xianjiro »

I AM Agador Spartacus and I love ignore!!
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#147

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

I think we've exhausted the ignore discussion. While it'd be great if no one felt the need to use it, it's there and will remain there and has, on balance been more helpful than harmful even if there are drawbacks.
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#148

Post by Onderhond »

xianjiro wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:32 pm
Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:28 pm nor do I like to fight all the time
lol - yeah, you told me so just last week (or was it the week before?) ;)
No clue what you're on about :)
kongs_speech wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:31 pm I'm just not really seeing the supposed problem with the ignore list function. If you typed something in reply to someone who has you on ignore, worst case scenario, you wasted a few minutes. Everyone on this forum has wasted a lot more time than that watching bad movies for checks. It's not the end of the world. Besides, someone else might reply to your comment, and then you've still got the conversation you desired.
Well, I never feel like a bad film is a true waste of time.
It's certainly not the end of the world, but if that was people's general attitude about things we really wouldn't need the ignore button :P
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#149

Post by xianjiro »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:37 pm I think we've exhausted the ignore discussion. While it'd be great if no one felt the need to use it, it's there and will remain there and has, on balance been more helpful than harmful even if there are drawbacks.
heck, even ice cream has drawbacks, but I don't see much demand to have it removed from the stores
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#150

Post by kongs_speech »

xianjiro wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:50 pm
PeacefulAnarchy wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:37 pm I think we've exhausted the ignore discussion. While it'd be great if no one felt the need to use it, it's there and will remain there and has, on balance been more helpful than harmful even if there are drawbacks.
heck, even ice cream has drawbacks, but I don't see much demand to have it removed from the stores
As a diabetic, I demand the removal of the high-sugar stuff. If I can't have it, no one can. "Frozen dairy dessert" for all! :P
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#151

Post by xianjiro »

Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:47 pm
xianjiro wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:32 pm
Onderhond wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:28 pm nor do I like to fight all the time
lol - yeah, you told me so just last week (or was it the week before?) ;)
No clue what you're on about :)
really? mods, film canon
found it
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#152

Post by xianjiro »

Well, I look forward to see what you mods come up for the touchy threads - will wait to see and try hard not to get into any flame wars in the meantime, let's just hope there isn't a "coup" on the 20th. Wait. The 20th is all because of a deep state coup.

Coup. Counter coup. Counting coup. counting sheep :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:
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OldAle1
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#153

Post by OldAle1 »

I think this is the canon you're looking for

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PeacefulAnarchy
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#154

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

xianjiro wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:57 pm Well, I look forward to see what you mods come up for the touchy threads - will wait to see and try hard not to get into any flame wars in the meantime, let's just hope there isn't a "coup" on the 20th. Wait. The 20th is all because of a deep state coup.

Coup. Counter coup. Counting coup. counting sheep :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:
I expect we'll open things up tomorrow. It's set up but we need to be clear both with ourselves and others how the moderation is going to work.
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#155

Post by xianjiro »

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:58 pm I think this is the canon you're looking for
alas, can you believe that canon is often roundly criticized by music intelligentsia? I forget the details, but I'm sure Google will tell you all about it. "Hey Google, why do music snobs hate Pachelbel's Canon in D?" :P
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OldAle1
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#156

Post by OldAle1 »

xianjiro wrote: ↑January 12th, 2021, 2:55 am
OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 11th, 2021, 10:58 pm I think this is the canon you're looking for
alas, can you believe that canon is often roundly criticized by music intelligentsia? I forget the details, but I'm sure Google will tell you all about it. "Hey Google, why do music snobs hate Pachelbel's Canon in D?" :P
Anything popular is hated by snobs, you know that. One of may favorite lines in Frasier has Niles saying to Frasier (or vice versa): "Do you remember when we thought the 1812 Overture was a good piece of classical music?" to which Frasier replies "Were we ever so young?"

Thankfully we don't have much of that kind of snobbery here. The people here who hate the popular stuff are mostly just weirdos or cranks - infinitely preferable to snobs.
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#157

Post by xianjiro »

so true

wait, don't tell me, next you're going to say you actually like La La Land ;) :P
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#158

Post by OldAle1 »

xianjiro wrote: ↑January 12th, 2021, 3:23 am so true

wait, don't tell me, next you're going to say you actually like La La Land ;) :P
That sappy crap? No way. Now if BΓ©la Tarr had directed it, in Hungarian, and it was 19 hours long with only 42 shots, maybe...
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#159

Post by kongs_speech »

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 12th, 2021, 4:03 am
xianjiro wrote: ↑January 12th, 2021, 3:23 am so true

wait, don't tell me, next you're going to say you actually like La La Land ;) :P
That sappy crap? No way. Now if BΓ©la Tarr had directed it, in Hungarian, and it was 19 hours long with only 42 shots, maybe...
42 shots in 19 hours? Why don't you just watch Transformers, pleb? A real cinephile would only watch that film if it was one uninterrupted shot.
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#160

Post by xianjiro »

OldAle1 wrote: ↑January 12th, 2021, 4:03 am
xianjiro wrote: ↑January 12th, 2021, 3:23 am so true

wait, don't tell me, next you're going to say you actually like La La Land ;) :P
That sappy crap? No way. Now if BΓ©la Tarr had directed it, in Hungarian, and it was 19 hours long with only 42 shots, maybe...
this is what I call ICMForum humor at it's best :lol:
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