Are you anti-natalist?

[xianjiro]

read all about it at the BBC

poll appended and open until 12 September. I tried to make two questions this time. Hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

[peeptoad]

Although I find the mere thought of having children of my own loathsome I am not an anti-natalist. I do wish people would think long and hard before having that 3rd or 4th kid though... oh well.

[Armoreska]

Sure, for multiple reasons. But the main problem is with China, India, Nigeria and other densely overpopulated countries. My country's population has been shrinking as it is.
But without some truly radical measures for shrinking the population (enviro-authoritarism?), we seem to be screwed. Different countries must have different policies for this, so there's at least some balance. Also the educated should be allowed to have more children, and the poor - less?

edit: haha my pre-antinatalist opinion. nowadays im a hardcore AN / borderline efilist

[Pretentious Hipster]

I definitely don't want kids on my own because of my genetics. Cancer, severe acne, and pretty much a guarantee for a severe mental illness because of my father's side would make it hell for a child. With a child you also have to dedicate your life to them, and have stuff like your collections broken because of their accidents. I'm too selfish to have someone like that. My partner despises kids too so I guess it works out.

[peeptoad]

well, since the poll is now available I voted in favor of shrinking the planet's population, but I don't feel comfortable at all telling others how to live their lives, so...
Way too many people on this rock though; we need a plague or something objective to wipe half of us away.

[blocho]

I've been an anti-natalist for a while. My thinking is mostly based around two ideas:
Idea #1: Life is a burden, one filled with opportunity but also guaranteed pain and misery.
Idea #2; People who procreate need to understand Idea #1 above and commit themselves to their responsibility to do their utmost for their child(ren) so that they can obtain life's opportunities and minimize the pain and misery.

Given these two ideas, and given my crappy genetics and my doubts about my ability to be a decent father, I decided about six years ago that I would never have children.

Now, other people are free to do what they want, and I certainly think consensual procreation is an essential human right. The United States has a pretty shameful history of taking away that right (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog ... ed-states/). But I do question the decisions other people make when they create a child. Certainly I question those who are ill-prepared to take on the challenges of parenting. But I also question those who are focused and determined to do the best for their children. I've sometimes asked friends who have children why they decided to have them, and they never seem to have an actual answer. And when I asked my mother why she wanted to have me and my brother, she had answers, but I noticed they always began with the words "I wanted." Honestly, it sounded selfish. I don't want people to stop having children. I'd just like them to think more thoroughly before they do.

[maxwelldeux]

well, since the poll is now available I voted in favor of shrinking the planet's population, but I don't feel comfortable at all telling others how to live their lives, so...

Yeah, basically this. I'm not having kids, I don't think many others should, but it's not my call.

At least I've done my part. In fact, after my vasectomy, Wife and I threw a "We're not having a baby shower." Probably the best party we ever threw, including a game called "drop the baby."

[3eyes]

I didn't think I wanted children but the biological clock finally registered and I had my first at 39, my second (despite (IUD) at 42.
Best things that ever happened to me.

I've been concerned about overpopulation since the 50s - it and climate change are exacerbating each other. I honestly don't see any solution at this point.

[xianjiro]

Tried to find an update on this article/this guy's lawsuit, but so far no luck. When I ran across the link in the original post, I thought of this again.

Indian man to sue parents for giving birth to him

While I've been a proponent of non-draconian population control through the means of widely and freely available contraception for many years, this article really got me thinking.

Also, while we are sentient and self-aware, we still are animals with that very primitive part of the brain some refer to as reptilian. We might be able to explain desires, but isn't there a part of all creatures that seeks to propagate the species, not to mention the social pressures "When are you going to give me grandchildren?" So, on some level, it doesn't come as a surprise that people have children: it's what all animals do.

[Onderhond]

Idea #1: Life is a burden

Say what now? Life rocks.

[Armoreska]

11 to 3 with 2 abstaining. Is it a consensus or just majority?

[Mario Gaborović]

I doubt there's shrinking population program because no one does where it matters (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).

By simply destroying traditional and implementing culture by force would do the job.

[mightysparks]

I’m ‘childfree’ and I think having children would be the absolute worst possible thing that could ever happen to me, but other people can do what they want. I’m on a childfree reddit and it seems like the majority of people they come across who have kids or want kids only want them to check off a life checklist or to fill a hole in their lives or to take care of them when they’re old, and those are just selfish shitty reasons to create an entirely new life. But if people genuinely want their child then that’s cool. I also see a lot of ‘breeders’ targeting people (especially women) as being evil and a waste of life if they don’t want to create offspring, which is pathetic. I think we’re moving towards a place where more people accept a childfree life overall though, but as Mario mentioned, I don’t think this is necessarily happening where it’s needed.

Also, I cannot believe that the contraceptive pill was not talked about more in school. Idk what it’s like now, though I read something recently that said just less than 50% of women are on birth control, but they make anything aside from condoms and abstinence sound really off-putting. I had issues with the arm rod thing but the non-hormonal pill costs me $6 for four months and it should really be pushed on everyone at school. Would help a few problems.

[sortile9io]

Absolutely! Fewer humans, more robots. We should curb our population growth rationally, otherwise nature will do it in a harsh way.

[matthewscott8]

I think creating life is unethical, i.e. there's no consent, so you have to make up for that by trying to make your kids' lives worthwhile. I think that's not the same as revolving around them, they take joy for granted if you do that, and then they're set up for unhappiness later on, or you end up stifling them.

I think you would have to take a view of the trajectory of the world's population,is the curve gonna be sigmoidal or carry on exponentially. My guess is sigmoidal.

If I was going to do it I would want to have a good environment for them, and be prepared to teach them how to be happy, also would have to be with the right woman. I don't want to see children torn apart by a marriage of convenience unravelling.

[Armoreska]

11 to 3 with 2 abstaining. Is it a consensus or just majority?

The normies have quickly caught up with us. 12 to 11

I'm surprised about the results of the 2nd poll! 9 to 6 atm for life is a burden, and I abstained because both statements are true.

[peeptoad]

Oh yeah, I hazed part 2...

2) Is life a gift or a burden one doesn't ask for? neither is my answer. It's too complicated a question for a black and white response. If forced into a BW mentality then I say burden.

[blocho]

Well, I learned a new word: Sigmoidal. It's a very useful one, but I'm hesitant to deploy it because I'm guessing very few people know what it means.

[matthewscott8]

Well, I learned a new word: Sigmoidal. It's a very useful one, but I'm hesitant to deploy it because I'm guessing very few people know what it means.

if it made you happy to discover it why assume it would make others unhappy. We had to move on from saying "Ugg" to each other at one point, these things are progress!

[matthewscott8]

11 to 3 with 2 abstaining. Is it a consensus or just majority?

The normies have quickly caught up with us. 12 to 11

I'm surprised about the results of the 2nd poll! 9 to 6 atm for life is a burden, and I abstained because both statements are true.

I haven't responded to 1 because I didn't associate myself with all parts of the third option, and with 2, my belief is life is a burden and a gift, and that's not part of the multiple choices

[xianjiro]

Children make people happier – but only once they’ve left home, study finds
People with adult sons and daughters have more freedom as they have a support network to look after them

[Kublai Khan]

I have two kids and love them dearly. I was very apprehensive at first and felt underprepared, but I don't regret it at all. I also don't really understand the loudly proud anti-child movement. I've seen online comments where people state their anti-kid opinions and it's just strange because I guess I don't see the societal pressure to have kids that they are backlashing against?

I have no problem if people don't want to have kids and I've never felt the urge to encourage people to have kids. I'm weirded out by commenters who feel the need to hate on kids and label them stuff like "crotchfruit" and their parents as "breeders". It's a weird hate.

I'm also an environmentalist who understands concepts like overpopulation and the danger of overcoming the carrying capacity of Earth. But there's something evil and ugly to the anti-natalist philosophy. it feels too much like a cousin of eugenics for me to be comfortable with.

[mightysparks]

My mum told me when I was 14 that if I got invited to parties she would get me alcohol and get me drunk before I got there so I could hookup with someone, and if I got raped she would happily take care of the kid. She has always constantly harassed me to give her grandchildren; this stuff is probably worse for women. After I did get raped, she told me she had hoped for a half-Asian grandchild I see a lot of stuff from people getting angry because people are choosing to NOT have kids. They see it as a waste of life and that you're not fulfilling your potential as a human or woman. The 'loudly proud movement' is probably because, if people can loudly tell us that we are a waste for not spreading our seed, why shouldn't we be proud that we're choosing to live our lives the way we want. Why can't you be proud to want and love kids AND be proud to not want or like kids?

I hate kids and did even when I was a kid. It's not like I want them all to suffer and die, I just don't want to see them, hear them or be involved with them in any way. I don't think I'm anti-natalist, I just have no interest in kids or being a parent myself.

Edit: Also, from what I see on the childfree reddit, is a lot of parent entitlement which I think is part of the hate that some people may have towards "breeders". Eg, people being forced to take on extra shifts or not being able to get time off during the holidays because the parents have requested it because they're parents. Or parents being like HEY LOOK AT MY KID AND TELL IT IS THE BEST. My mum used to babysit these two horrendous children and every time I would say to her just don't put them near me or force me to interact with them; every time, HEY LAUREN ARENT THE GIRLS BEAUTIFUL TODAY. SAY HELLO AND TELL THEM HOW BEAUTIFUL THEY ARE. Then she would get angry when I would ignore her and walk away.

[maxwelldeux]

I have two kids and love them dearly. I was very apprehensive at first and felt underprepared, but I don't regret it at all. I also don't really understand the loudly proud anti-child movement. I've seen online comments where people state their anti-kid opinions and it's just strange because I guess I don't see the societal pressure to have kids that they are backlashing against?

I have no problem if people don't want to have kids and I've never felt the urge to encourage people to have kids. I'm weirded out by commenters who feel the need to hate on kids and label them stuff like "crotchfruit" and their parents as "breeders". It's a weird hate.

I'm also an environmentalist who understands concepts like overpopulation and the danger of overcoming the carrying capacity of Earth. But there's something evil and ugly to the anti-natalist philosophy. it feels too much like a cousin of eugenics for me to be comfortable with.

So, a couple things in response. It's not a huge societal pressure. it's a baseline expectation, but not a strong one - you kinda are expected to justify why you don't want kids, but don't have to justify why you do. Again, though, not a huge pressure - the big pressure comes from family and/or friends. I'm an only child, and on one side, an only (biological) grandchild. I had expressed that I didn't want kids from as young of an age as early-to-mid teens, but always got the condescending "just wait 'til you're older" response. It got to the point that my family got informed of my vasectomy after the fact.

And I'm certainly one of the people who labels kids "crotchfruit" or "fuck trophies" and the parents as "breeders". it's not out of an animosity or anything, just a reaction to the constant incredulity that I might *not* want to have kids myself. If I'm branded as weird for not wanting kids, you can be branded as weird for wanting/having them. But it's also something I only use with my friends - I'm not going to call a stranger a "breeder", but I might call my best friend from college who I've known for nearly 20 years a "breeder" when she has kids.

Frankly, mighty's comment sums it up for me:

I hate kids and did even when I was a kid. It's not like I want them all to suffer and die, I just don't want to see them, hear them or be involved with them in any way. I don't think I'm anti-natalist, I just have no interest in kids or being a parent myself.

I like bars because kids aren't allowed in them. I don't like attending events with kids. I don't like kids around me. I will never watch anyone's kids. Once they get to the stage where they're self-sufficient and I can be a bad influence rather than an evil one, I can handle them. When my nieces/nephews/cousins hit ~10 or so, they started getting fun. But I don't want to deal with the baby shit. Wife (and by extension, me) have a "Framily" (friend/family) of eight of us - four couples. One couple has a 3yo and is pregnant now; one has a 5mo old; one is pregnant with the first. We have dogs. Wife likes babies; I don't. I have nothing in common any more with anyone else. It's weird and estranging; I'm an admitted misanthropic asshole, but I don't feel any obligation to participate in your lifestyle choice regarding kids.

So yeah - I don't want to prevent anyone from having kids who wants them, nor do I actively hate kids - I just choose to ignore them and not participate in that lifestyle.

[Minkin]

Its rather strange how different parts of this country have different degrees of parenthood.

I've mentioned it before, but my highschool in rural Oregon had a daycare! Turns out when you teach abstinence only, you end up with a lot of unwanted kids. I recently looked up everybody in my 6th grade yearbook, and found that the vast majority of them had children (and/or gained 300lbs). It was surreal.

Then in my highschool here in CA, I only know of 3-4 of my classmates who've had kids; most decided to focus on their careers; and most don't have any hope of owning a house in LA, let alone affording children. This is the far more likely story for my generation - who the fuck can afford to even have kids?

Thankfully, being in a queer relationship, we don't have to worry about the possibility of kids, and neither of us ever want them. Add us both to the "actively hate children" category. I do love the conspiracy theories around "the government's making us gay to control the population growth!"

My parents were accepting of the whole not having any offspring. My partner's mom absolutely adores babies (to a terrifying degree) - and this of course scared everyone in the family off from wanting kids! But my goodness is there horrible pressure by society to reproduce. My sister was disgustingly pissed at me when I told her I was never having children (she also has some serious mental health issues, but that's another issue). We get this pressure to reproduce just cause companies want to cash in on all that $$$ (see also: companies liking gays during June). Just like having a large wedding, a big house, 2.5 kids, and a gun - I've never wanted any part of that nightmare.

My greatest fear is that either my older sister, or one of my friends ends up having kids. Cause I wouldn't want anything to do with that; and I know they'd try to rope me into some shitty birthday party or watching after the brats. I've actually had a nightmare that my sister had a kid, named is Burberry, and it was like a human version of a Pomeranian. It was horrible.

Funny aside - Breeder is a common term for cishets. Having kids is soooooo hetero.

[xianjiro]

1) Societal pressure - think this also has something to do with ethno-cultural background. It's probably easier for people of European/North American descent to get the family to accept, but I think in large swaths of Asia and Latin America ... I can think of numerous incidents were I was flat out asked "When are you getting married?" even though it was clear I didn't have a girlfriend and "Why don't you have children?" in both Mexico and Japan. I also know people who've felt a great deal of pressure to have families when they either didn't want or couldn't have them.

2) I thought the term 'breeders' became unacceptable in polite company some years back since it was basically what gay people called straight people and fairly analogous to honky or cracker. While not quite as bad as the n-word or a certain c-word (outside Australia), it's still possible people would be offended. So, it's kind of odd to see it tossed around so casually by a new crowd.

3) Kids - While I generally try to be kind, understanding, communicative when I need to interact with children, it's not high on my list of favorite things. For one thing, there's still a lot of paranoia left from the 80s when so many people were convinced gay men were all pedophiles trying to recruit. So forgive us old gays who are simply uncomfortable with people's kids. Beyond that, nothing makes a quiet intimate supper in a nice restaurant quite like a screaming baby or kids playing tag. Can't go to the grocery store without screaming kids, kids playing chase up and down the aisle (and of course its my job to watch out for them), etc. There's nothing more annoying than "they're just kids" being an excuse for everything from yelling to throwing a brick through a window.

[Coryn]

What a bunch of depressive children haters on here

Personally, I definitely want kids, not because of pressure or anything but I just want to be a dad. I can see me devoting my life to my future children. It also opens up a lot of social opportunities.

Ps. I like to use 'littlekidlover' on dating sites. That way women always know what my priorities are.

[cinephage]

Maybe that's because I'm a breeder, but I always thought that at some point in a relationship, kids would become "the next step", and it did, in my case. My daughter is now 20, and I've been more of a father than I thought I would, but taking care of her may very well be the highest achievement in my life. It took so much energy, care, attention... I've never invested even half as much in either a relationship of a job, and can't think of going as far into anything else in the future.

But I'm mostly proud because she is a good person, and it's kind of neat to have brought a nice person into the world. I find it's richer for it, and I would agree to have more kids, if the opportunity came up (which is rather unlikely at this point in my life, but you never know).

[peeptoad]

Honestly, I do not hate children or even really dislike them (generally speaking). For example, when my best friend's brother's kids were in the 6-10 age range I had a blast with them. I do enjoy playing around with kids when they are younger like that, mainly because it gives me an excuse to run around and act like a fool without anyone hassling me about it. But I can only enjoy that for maybe a few hours every couple of weeks or so (and truthfully I get the same enjoyment or better from roughhousing and running around with dogs and cats). Being around kids I don't know and/or kids in greater numbers tends to make me uneasy/anxious/aggravated pretty quickly. And I felt this way when I was the age of the kids who I speak of. At age 12 I had a talk with my mother to inform her she'd never have grand kids. She was totally okay with it because she respected my decision and feelings, even at age 12.
Unfortunately the societal pressure that some speak of here is a reality. I haven't experienced it in any terribly egregious manner, except for two different guys at two different times in my life who ultimately broke up with me because I said I didn't want children. Thankfully this conversation (both times) occurred at an early point in the relationship. I've had two other friends who have, at various times, told me things like "you're wasting your good genes by not having kids" or "with your looks and brain I can't understand why you'd not want to have kids " etc. I guess assuming they'd be like me (ugh, I wouldn't wish my personality type on some of my enemies). None of that really bothers me or makes me think or wish anything differently though. A dog is for sure in my future... children are not.
Other than those personal feelings of mine I just simply think are way too many people on the planet already. Why add more, esp with the way things are going (largely) right now?

[Coryn]

The ratio of people wanting to have children versus people not wanting on here is definitely lower than average. Can we make any conclusions out of this ?

[Mario Gaborović]

The ratio of people wanting to have children versus people not wanting on here is definitely lower than average. Can we make any conclusions out of this ?

What I said above (and nobody reads): introducing culture reduces births per woman.

[peeptoad]

What Mario said, plus the thread title might just draw in more people with an already established, anti-children opinion...

[Coryn]

People without children just have way more time to get into film.
There is truth in what Mario said though.

[matthewscott8]

I think it's dangerous to think in a judgemental way about people who either do or do not want to have kids. Whether or not you want them is likely the product of a hormonal cocktail rather than anything else, with a bit of rationalisation thrown in. Albeit I have seen people resist their hormones. One of my friends is in her mid 30s and has gone super maternal, but is riding it out, she cited not wanting body damage, either damage down below or via c section, also cited having children as an admission of failure in life, e.g. time to pass the baton onto a next generation, and isn't ready to give up. Worried about passing on depression genetically too. She has opted to get a dog.

I would like to bring a child into a world where beauty and empathy are possible, but all I see is a corrupted world, where children get their eyes burned out as soon as they're old enough to access the internet, one where no role models exist, and love is an academic concept.

Obviously people who feel like there has been a place for them in the world, and have had lots of good times, are more likely to want children.

[peeptoad]

Whether or not you want them sex is likely the product of a hormonal cocktail rather than anything else...

[Mario Gaborović]

People without children just have way more time to get into film.

No, it comes other way round. Making people wish more from life leads them to watch more films, explore interests and become personas...

People of low cultural standard are replicants, like ants, they don't even think that way, just reproduce and know nothing about the world or about themselves anyway. They are also unlikely to read books, march/protest against governments, talk with arguments rather than fists etc.

That's why the world will be always a shitty place, as those who make it better can't defend from the invasion of toothless, violent mediocrities.

For example, I think introducing Depeche Mode or indie/electro music to the youths of Bangladesh would be a solution good enough to spare this globe millions of needless people and their misery. Sounds silly but just think of it in praxis rather than theory.

[blocho]

I rather like children on the whole, but I recognize that just as they're likely to be more delightful than adults at times, they're also likely to be far more annoying and unpleasant than adults at times. I can't blame children for this. They're too young to have learned and internalized the norms of societies. But I can blame parents who inflict their children's worst behavior on others. And that's what I really dislike: parents who don't manage their children in public, along with the social expectation that the rest of us put up with it gladly.

It seems to me that there should be a simple norm at work: When children are doing things that are unpleasant and upsetting to other people in a public setting, their parents should either modulate their behavior or remove them from that public setting. Regrettably, this often doesn't happen. We've all seen parents who let their children run around restaurants, public transport, and the sidewalk like maniacs. Again, I'm not blaming the children for this. But a few weeks ago, I was discussing this very issue with some co-workers, and I said that I thought on airplanes children younger than a certain age should be limited to family seating sections. I also said that I thought parents in any case should try not to fly with children until they're at least 6 years old. My co-workers reacted as if I was a monster.

[Kublai Khan]

My mum told me when I was 14 that if I got invited to parties she would get me alcohol and get me drunk before I got there so I could hookup with someone, and if I got raped she would happily take care of the kid. She has always constantly harassed me to give her grandchildren; this stuff is probably worse for women. After I did get raped, she told me she had hoped for a half-Asian grandchild I see a lot of stuff from people getting angry because people are choosing to NOT have kids. They see it as a waste of life and that you're not fulfilling your potential as a human or woman. The 'loudly proud movement' is probably because, if people can loudly tell us that we are a waste for not spreading our seed, why shouldn't we be proud that we're choosing to live our lives the way we want. Why can't you be proud to want and love kids AND be proud to not want or like kids?

Yeah, fair point. I'm definitely approaching the topic from a male POV and am not taking into consideration that societal pressure is probably greater for women. Also, sorry about your mom, no offense intended but she sounds kinda crazy based on that anecdote.

And I'm certainly one of the people who labels kids "crotchfruit" or "fuck trophies" and the parents as "breeders". it's not out of an animosity or anything, just a reaction to the constant incredulity that I might *not* want to have kids myself. If I'm branded as weird for not wanting kids, you can be branded as weird for wanting/having them. But it's also something I only use with my friends - I'm not going to call a stranger a "breeder", but I might call my best friend from college who I've known for nearly 20 years a "breeder" when she has kids.

It still seems weird to me. Like, we're generally all the result of a hetero coupling*. So we're all "fuck trophies". Why have a term specifically to insult current children simply because they happen to be born? It's as bad as any other type of insult bullying.

*maybe some exceptions like in-vitro?

[xianjiro]

So, just want to say that I'm not a proponent of only allowing certain groups of people to procreate - eugenics really give me the willies. But that said, we haven't really talked about unplanned births much yet. You know the situation - hopefully not personally - where a fun night, possibly fueled by drink or other recreational pharmaceuticals, leads to more one-on-one fun. There are a whole host of reasons why contraception doesn't happen and a few good reasons why the mother decides to have the baby. Some times this is a great thing for both parent and child.

But what about the lives of unwanted children?

[peeptoad]

You know the situation ...

Yep. I was the product of one of those situations and abandoned at birth. Thankfully I was adopted by awesome, caring people.