Are you anti-natalist?

[maxwelldeux]

Ps. I like to use 'littlekidlover' on dating sites. That way women always know what my priorities are.

[mightysparks]

Yeah, fair point. I'm definitely approaching the topic from a male POV and am not taking into consideration that societal pressure is probably greater for women. Also, sorry about your mom, no offense intended but she sounds kinda crazy based on that anecdote.

Nah, she is crazy lol. My boyfriend has only met her a few times and while ago he was like 'I like your mum, she's nice, but she's crazy'. I didn't tell her about my boyfriend for some time because I was worried it would get worse, and I warned him about it, but luckily she doesn't harass him. She's definitely getting weirder as she gets older, especially with kids or pets etc. She has like 5 lorikeets she's rescued now and it's kind of creepy watching her with them. And yea, though she hassles my brother about giving her grandkids he definitely cops it less. Every time I see her, she somehow manages to bring up 'woe is me, I'm nearly 50 and not a grandparent' and I'm just like don't look at me, birth control is my religion.

[matthewscott8]

It still seems weird to me. Like, we're generally all the result of a hetero coupling*. So we're all "fuck trophies". Why have a term specifically to insult current children simply because they happen to be born? It's as bad as any other type of insult bullying.

*maybe some exceptions like in-vitro?

I don't think anyone is using it to refer to the children directly, no-one's walking up to a kid and saying, "hey, how's it going eff trophy". It's clearly insensitive. There are definitely people who see their children as trophies, that's what it's a reference to (though still insensitive). Mostly I've seen dads who see children as trophies of their virility. However that attitude is definitely on the wane where I am in the UK, though particularly Indian people I know brag about it in that sense. I think a lot of time people use this language as a reflection of something bad that's happened to them. I mean I often wonder why the hell my dad had children, he seemed to see us as weights around his neck more than anything else. One of the weirdest things that ever happened to me is that he tried to persuade me not to apply to Oxford University, and then when I got in I found out he had been bragging about it at work. Sabotaging me at the same time as bragging about me, whilst it looks contradictory, and it was a pattern, actually is entirely consistent with an overwhelming ego and a trophy mentality. One of the reasons I felt I wanted kids at one point was as a correction, i.e. to do it properly and reset a trajectory.

[Lammetje]

I find every sound a baby makes repulsive. Just thinking about hearing that every day, having my freedom severely limited, being forced to talk about babies with other parents etc. etc. makes me want to slash my wrists. I also completely agree with Blocho about the problem with annoying kids in public spaces. Older (quiet) kids can be cute or funny from time to time though.

I guess I am anti-natalist. As pointed out by others, Europe (except Luxembourg ) and countries as Japan and South Korea are not the problem. Anyone who can make a stop to the excessive breeding in countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Benin and Uganda deserves a freaking medal.

[Armoreska]

I guess I am anti-natalist. As pointed out by others, Europe (except Luxembourg ) and countries as Japan and South Korea are not the problem. Anyone who can make a stop to the excessive breeding in countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Benin and Uganda deserves a freaking medal.

Ukraine proudly bottom 5. Looks like only 2 Baltic states are becoming roomier faster.
Russia oddly the most stable of all.

I like how Oman's water crisis apparently has no effect on the massive growth rate.

Edginess still has a narrow lead over normalcy in our poll
16-14
11-10

[mightysparks]

I find every sound a baby makes repulsive. Just thinking about hearing that every day, having my freedom severely limited, being forced to talk about babies with other parents etc. etc. makes me want to slash my wrists.

I can go from super chill to homicidal just from a baby noise. I've started wearing headphones on my daily walks just because I couldn't handle the squeals, screams, cries, laughter and other nonsense from all the children around here. Every time I see people pushing prams or doing stuff with their kids down here, and groups of women standing around watching their kids, I feel so happy that will never be my life, it seems so suffocating. I can't imagine anything worse.

[Lammetje]

I find every sound a baby makes repulsive. Just thinking about hearing that every day, having my freedom severely limited, being forced to talk about babies with other parents etc. etc. makes me want to slash my wrists.

I can go from super chill to homicidal just from a baby noise. I've started wearing headphones on my daily walks just because I couldn't handle the squeals, screams, cries, laughter and other nonsense from all the children around here. Every time I see people pushing prams or doing stuff with their kids down here, and groups of women standing around watching their kids, I feel so happy that will never be my life, it seems so suffocating. I can't imagine anything worse.

Oh yes, there have been many, many times when I thought to myself: I'm so happy I don't have children. But the hallways in my apartment building are full of prams at times, so that's another way for the breeding part of the population to screw with the sane part of the population.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, that's the thing that bothers me. I'm totally happy if anti-natalist are happier without kids. I'm not pushing them to have kids and I agree that there shouldn't be any societal pressures to be different than what you want to be.

But the actively kid-hating people are creepy. Hating a certain class of people for just existing isn't a healthy or sane thing. Misanthropy isn't a sign of enlightenment.

[blocho]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think most of the anti-natalists here (and I'm surprised to find myself in such good company -- in real life, people sometimes act like I'm a monster) are not making an argument against people but rather an argument against behavior. So with Lammetje's example, the problem is the behavior of some parents in inconveniencing the rest of us. Leaving baby carriages (or "prams") in the hallways is not a big deal, but it is annoying. If you have a baby carriage, put it in your apartment. I don't leave my bicycle in the apartment hallway, and if I did I think most people on my floor would justifiably ask me to change my behavior because I would be treating public space as if it were mine.

[xianjiro]

Yeah, good points. It's the bad parents that ruin it for the rest of us! And Kublai makes a good point - it isn't right to 'hate' a class of people. In this case, it's a form of ageism, no?

And for the list of unattractive parenting behaviors - yelling. Today, the mom on the next property (who lost her infant to the care system for a few months when it toddled off across a busy intersection all on his own) returned to yelling, "(child's name) where are you?" And no, that's not the old, "Where are you? I'm gunna find you!" from hide and go seek. Yesterday it was, "Get in the fucking bathtub!"

It was so quiet when the baby wasn't around. And no, the child isn't the noisy one - yet. Poor kid.

[mightysparks]

I agree with Blocho that generally ‘I hate kids’ means ‘I hate all the typical kid behaviours and things associated with them’. I hate noise, mess, people in my way, people harassing me, and people touching me without permission. Most of the time, kids tick all of these boxes. Old people and teenagers tick some of them often too and I’m not a fan of them either. Or you know, people in general. I don’t hate any of these ‘groups’ for existing, I just hate things negatively affecting me and that includes some screaming dribbling thing that runs into my path because it has no awareness of anything but itself. When my experience with a particular group of people is 99-100% the same, it’s difficult to not form an opinion about what it’s like to interact with that group. I don’t know why that’s creepy.

[blocho]

Oh man, just two recent stories:

- Taking Metro-North last week, a mom in my car yelling at her child for 90 minutes straight, "Close your eyes and go to sleep." She must have yelled it at least 200 times. I have no idea what the child was doing. I imagine it must have been something a little annoying, but it was the mom who was disturbing everyone. I think I just need to go everywhere with headphones or earplugs.
- On the subway a month ago, and a man holding an infant sat down next to me. At one point, the baby touches my shoulder with her hand. No big deal. Dad says sorry. It's only five minutes later, when I'm getting off the subway, that I notice the baby had smeared spit-up on my shoulder. Dad saw it, but I didn't. I guess he thought "sorry" was enough and didn't think he needed to take any actual action when his baby put her vomit on me.

It's not the kids that are the problem. It's the crappy parents. And of course, the problems get worse in crowded public spaces like trains.

OK, I got myself worked up for nothing. Calm down, blocho.

[mightysparks]

Yeah a lot of the time it’s bad parenting. The anger gets misplaced at the kid because it’s the one doing the annoying thing but the parents are the ones allowing or encouraging the bad behaviour. I was always very conscious of my environment and those around me as a kid though, when I see those ones around I’m totally fine with them being around.

I was at a self serve the other day and a toddler thing was a bit in my way but it was fine. The parent noticed, apologized and explained (nicely) to her kid to respect other people’s space or whatever. I was like yeah man that’s how you do it.

[xianjiro]

We used to have a nice library in the neighborhood. It could be a bit noisy when the kids got out of school - teenagers mostly - they'd come to play video games either on the official computers or on their laptops and phones. Maybe the free wifi and lack of parental supervision were factors?

Then someone got the bright idea to redo the building. Sure, it needed serious work, but:

1) The front door faces the main playground in this part of the city.
2) They got rid ofrelocated to the other library (which has pitiful bus service) 80% of the adult books to the other library (which has pitiful bus service).
3) The use of space is basically, in descending order: meeting rooms and movement spaces, computers, kid's area.
4) Go in there in the middle of the day during summer and you'd swear you walked into the rowdiest school library ever.
5) Reference desk? What's a reference desk? (Neither library in the city has one now.)

I guess the new library is a big hit with parents, but I've yet to speak with anyone over 50 who likes it and mostly because "they got rid of the books!" though occasionally you hear "it's so noisy." Based on this building, the cranky old biddylibrarian shushing people for turning pages too aggressively is doing backflips in her grave.

But the parents are happy and since they are the majority, everyone else can get stuffed.

[xianjiro]

These stories are really heartbreaking! 42 kids have died in hot cars in the US this year - it's just unbelievable.



FYI: Let's say the babysitter reported to work at 7am. At that time of the morning, Hobbs was already 64F/17.8C on 17 September. Six hours later, it was 88F/31C! And that's AMBIENT temperature - outside! Even with sunshades and such, you can guess how hot a closed up car would get. I am glad to hear that carmakers are working on some sort of sensor system, but how many more deaths is it going to take?

My heart breaks for the families involved - this would be way too much pain to deal with.

After six miscarriages, US couple's baby dies in hot car

[Onderhond]

Personally I'm quite ambivalent when it comes to kids. I put the decision in the hands of my girlfriend as I don't really care either way. I don't care for other people's children, but I'm sure that I'll love my own just the same. I don't need any and don't really care for the extra stress they'll bring, but I realize that raising a kid comes with its own rewards, so in the end it'll pan out just the same. It's not that different from pets, even "parents" tend to behave the same way.

I'm 38 now and some people are prone to ask the "why don't you have children" question. I don't see it as social pressure, even when they express surprise. We are biologically wired to procreate, it's a pretty fair and normal question. I also tend to give them an honest answer. Some of them don't like it, some of them appreciate the honesty. I don't see any of these situations as uncomfortable or unfeasible though. I also think it's weird when people overreact to them.

I'm also quite forward when people want to show me their kid's pictures or let their children dominate the conversation. I either walk away or straight up tell them I'm really not that interested in their kids. When they're persistent, relationships tend to fade, but that's just a fact of life. I've muted some people on Facebook because I got tired of their kids and some work relationship deteriorated because of too many "funny" stories about people's kids, but it's hardly something to get worked up about.

In short: I don't get all the tough language and irritation when it comes to this subject.

[Armoreska]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ate-change

[Onderhond]

I don't see a particular problem with these sentiments to be honest. I don't agree with them, but if people want to believe that, no harm is done. Feels like just another natural way to enforce birth control.

Unless they want to start enforcing their ideals on others, let them be.

[matthewscott8]

My best friend has recently told me she doesn't want to have kids because of the harm it's causing the planet. Also specifically reduced living space for people. I watched a documentary recently about "coffin" homes in Hong Kong that was pretty chilling. People paying huge sums so they can basically live in wardrobe sized spaces.

People I know with kids used to brag about their green credentials. It's now well known that if you chose to have kids, you don't have green credentials.

As part of my work I've been noticing about the amount of land we're turning into desert, it's pretty horrifying. I don't want to see humans extinct but we really do need to start controlling ourselves. The quality of life that future generations have is going to be so low if not.

[Armoreska]

out of context


Anyone know any other anti-natalist bits from movies?

[mightysparks]

Turned 29 a few days ago and now my grandparents are ‘bingoing’ me; “29 now and still no great grandkids” I thought I’d at least get to 30 before they joined in. 25 years of me saying I’ll never have kids and still no one cares what I want. Luckily, there’s no one else in my family to bother me about it. I’d get a hysterectomy and be done with it but I really don’t want to get surgery of any kind unless I really need it.

[Lammetje]

Turned 29 a few days ago and now my grandparents are ‘bingoing’ me; “29 now and still no great grandkids” I thought I’d at least get to 30 before they joined in. 25 years of me saying I’ll never have kids and still no one cares what I want. Luckily, there’s no one else in my family to bother me about it. I’d get a hysterectomy and be done with it but I really don’t want to get surgery of any kind unless I really need it.

Getting a hysterectomy won't prevent you from being able to adopt a child, so you wouldn't "be done with it" anyways. But can't you somehow convince them that complaining to you about not having (grand)children will only lower the probability of ever getting any?

[Armoreska]

Or just explain to them that bringing children into the future world of unhinged warming and overpopulation is an immoral act.

[OldAle1]

Or just explain to them that bringing children into the future world of unhinged warming and overpopulation is an immoral act.

A nice thought but people have to be semi-rational and not wrapped up in their Bibles/Korans/Talmuds etc to even begin to understand that. I bet a good percentage of mighty's family, like mine, isn't capable of it. And even those who do have some ability to think rationally and aren't religious fanatics can't help letting "nature" take over most of the time.

[GruesomeTwosome]

Or just explain to them that bringing children into the future world of unhinged warming and overpopulation is an immoral act.

You don't interact with many old folks, do you?

[mightysparks]

My family aren’t religious, just my mum and my grandparents want grandkids/great grandkids. If they don’t care what will make me happy I don’t think they care about making the planet happy lol. They won’t want an adopted kid, and I’ve told mum before that badgering me about it makes me want kids even less, and it was already at 0%. My mum and my grandma basically don’t know anything else than raising children or looking after people so I don’t think they know any other way of being happy. Both got pregnant at 19 and haven’t had a life outside of motherhood since. As much as I like both of them, their lives are part of the reason I don’t want kids.

Also saw a comment from a stupid woman on Facebook a couple of weeks ago em who said that people not having kids aren’t ‘contributing to humanity’ and don’t deserve to have a good life. Disgusting attitude.

[xianjiro]

Think there is also an attitude out there that goes something like: you don't know how much you really want kids until you start having them. And as people age, and women lose the ability to have their own additional children, they often find being grandparents very appealing. Imagine, all the fun of spoiling someone else's child and you don't have to get up night after night to feed and change: sorta like eating all the cake and ice cream you want and never gaining weight.

Certainly don't blame anyone for not wanting surgery to put a damper on badgering, but it certainly wouldn't be a reason I'd support.

Stay strong and just think of their requests as drops of rain hitting a duck's back.

[mightysparks]

No, I want surgery to make sure I can’t get pregnant, but since the pill is doing just fine I’d rather only have invasive surgery if it’s my only option. Don’t really care what they say, I still get to do whatever I want with my life. Just sucks that I have to hear ‘you’ll change your mind when you’re older’ and ‘we want this and we don’t care what you want’ for another 25 years. Of course, my brother and (all male) cousins don’t get hassled about it.

[Pretentious Hipster]

I can’t believe mightysparks is about to turn 30 - she still looks so young!

It’s strange to think that 90% of her eggs are already gone - 97% by the time she turns 40 - so I hope she thinks about having kids before it’s too late!

She’d be a fun mom.

[xianjiro]

MIghty, have you tried just telling them you don't appreciate the badgering (even though it might be for the right reasons - one has to be positive and caring - you know, a spoonful sugar...). Even if they don't accept your reasons, share them one more time, and have a conversation about whatever their concerns are. Work to be really patient and understanding but express your own decisions and reasons firmly. If they say, "maybe you'll feel differently in a couple years ..." Agree, but be honest if you think it's unlikely.

Not sure about the family dynamics, but when a certain member of my family badgers or says something hurtful and inappropriate, we've had some success using something like "I'm done with this conversation. If you want to see/talk to me again before (some holiday or family thing), you need to let it go." I've literally had to say "I'm hanging up now, goodbye." otherwise it would have gone on and on.

When dealing with someone who isn't always skilled at respecting another person's boundaries, even when well-intentioned, sometimes we just have to be very clear what our own boundary is and be willing to do some version of "respect it or else".

[Lammetje]

Think there is also an attitude out there that goes something like: you don't know how much you really want kids until you start having them. And as people age, and women lose the ability to have their own additional children, they often find being grandparents very appealing. Imagine, all the fun of spoiling someone else's child and you don't have to get up night after night to feed and change: sorta like eating all the cake and ice cream you want and never gaining weight.

Except kids are lame and cake or ice cream is nice.*

* As long as it's vegan.

Stay strong and just think of their requests as drops of rain hitting a duck's back.

Awesome metaphore!

[mightysparks]

My family aren’t the type to take that stuff seriously. If I’ve ever spoken up about something that bothers me I’m told I’m overacting or ‘it’s just a joke’, and then by next time I’ve seen them they’ve forgotten. I’ve confronted my mum a number of times, and she does it nearly every time I see her.

[Armoreska]

Movie suggestions
https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/c ... ight_like/

Found more scenes from movies

Spoiler

The poll was dead tied
3/13 to 13/3 for #1 but in the stronger views anti won 13 to 3
and 11 to 11 for #2

[Kublai Khan]

My family aren’t the type to take that stuff seriously. If I’ve ever spoken up about something that bothers me I’m told I’m overacting or ‘it’s just a joke’, and then by next time I’ve seen them they’ve forgotten. I’ve confronted my mum a number of times, and she does it nearly every time I see her.

There are people that don't realize how often they do something inappropriate.

Best thing to do is have an active count. Every time they mention kids, just let them know how many times they've done it. If they think you're making up the number, do it on a whiteboard.

[Armoreska]

[Armoreska]

[Onderhond]

[Armoreska]

I found a whole AN song

actually there's a few more that are not that good or on point

[Armoreska]

Something to oppose the anti-suicide bias thats prevalent on this forum and near everywhere.

[Onderhond]

I have no real moral reservations about suicide, but that's some poor argumentation ...