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Silent films

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#41

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on Jun 30 2011, 10:49:13 AM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Jun 30 2011, 10:00:45 AM wrote:
Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on Jun 30 2011, 09:04:16 AM wrote:I love so many silents that honing a list would be a real project for me.

But I wanted to ask others on here who have seen the Nibelungen films and The Joyless Street and The Italian Straw Hat: how can one see them??? (I live in North America.)

Thanks.
There's a Kino DVD of Die Nibelungen

A Flicker Alley DVD of The Italian Straw Hat.

There's a public domain DVD of The Joyless street, but I think that's one you'll need to import or get by other means. The European DVD is much better.
So one has to purchase them to watch them? I wish Netflix carried them!

Thanks, Peaceful!
By the way, I did end up buying Die Nibelungen and Joyless Street-- thanks again!

Still haven't seen The Italian Straw Hat.
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#42

Post by Kasparius »

mightysparks on Mar 10 2013, 08:08:38 PM wrote:Lucky Star is indeed awesome.

Going on a 'Monty's lil mom' spam spree Kaspar? :lol:
Getting a little creative with it, as you can see.
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#43

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on Mar 10 2013, 08:14:05 PM wrote:
Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on Jun 30 2011, 10:49:13 AM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on Jun 30 2011, 10:00:45 AM wrote:There's a Kino DVD of Die Nibelungen

A Flicker Alley DVD of The Italian Straw Hat.

There's a public domain DVD of The Joyless street, but I think that's one you'll need to import or get by other means. The European DVD is much better.
So one has to purchase them to watch them? I wish Netflix carried them!

Thanks, Peaceful!
By the way, I did end up buying Die Nibelungen and Joyless Street-- thanks again!

Still haven't seen The Italian Straw Hat.
The Italian Straw Hat is a dumb movie, you're better off not watching it. I hope you got a good copy of Joyless Street, it's wonderful.
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#44

Post by brokenface »

yeah a lot of those borderline silent/talkie films fell through the cracks. it's sad to think of ones that will never be rediscovered because they no longer exist. The River, another 1929 from Borzage only half exists, for example.

I got Lucky Star on DVD with Liliom, which is also worth checking out. I rate Borzage highly.
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#45

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

brokenface on Mar 10 2013, 08:20:00 PM wrote:yeah a lot of those borderline silent/talkie films fell through the cracks. it's sad to think of ones that will never be rediscovered because they no longer exist. The River, another 1929 from Borzage only half exists, for example.

I got Lucky Star on DVD with Liliom, which is also worth checking out. I rate Borzage highly.
Yeah, I know that it's now a well-worn cliche sometimes associated with cantankerous cinematic retrogrades, but the silents really were hitting an amazing peak in the late 20s.

That said, after a brief period of cheap novelty talkies, the 30s were pretty spectacular, too, of course ... but there was a special kind of storytelling magic to the silents that diminished in some respects when they were gone.
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#46

Post by burneyfan »

I didn't realize that sound elements had been introduced into the film -- I saw the silent version (with nice soundtrack) five months ago and loved it. It definitely didn't need sound.

Re: Local's spoiler: "Interpretation #1" definitely occurred to me at the end -- my cynical side was eyerolling and annoyed at the implications of the plot's direction, but I loved the film so much up to that point that the optimistic part of me told Cynical Self to shut the hell up; ultimately I embraced "Interpretation #2." I think I'd have loved it EVEN MORE, though, if that particular plot point had not occurred -- certainly not in that way or any other way that retains the problems inherent in Interpretation #1.
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#47

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

Oh, and btw, the film never made an overt "lucky star" reference. I kept waiting for the cheesy spech that would invoke the title, but, unless I missed it, it never came. :)
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#48

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

burneyfan on Mar 10 2013, 08:26:13 PM wrote:I didn't realize that sound elements had been introduced into the film -- I saw the silent version (with nice soundtrack) five months ago and loved it. It definitely didn't need sound.

Re: Local's spoiler: "Interpretation #1" definitely occurred to me at the end -- my cynical side was eyerolling and annoyed at the implications of the plot's direction, but I loved the film so much up to that point that the optimistic part of me told Cynical Self to shut the hell up; ultimately I embraced "Interpretation #2." I think I'd have loved it EVEN MORE, though, if that particular plot point had not occurred -- certainly not in that way or any other way that retains the problems inherent in Interpretation #1.
My experience EXACTLY-- every point you made. :wub: :wub: :wub:
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#49

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

I made an iCM list of all the films referenced in the 2006 David Thompson documentary Silent Britain, in case anyone else might be interested -- https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/sile ... tnyigeroi/.

Latest silent I enjoyed a lot: The Winning of Barabara Worth. Great shots of the desert West, mostly Nevada.
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#50

Post by Kublai Khan »

I had recently watched L'Inferno (1911) (youtube link) which had an atrocious new soundtrack by Tangerine Dream (with female lyrics).

I had to mute the music and just play my own, which I enjoyed immensely. Same thing happened when I had re-watched The Man with a Camera with the Cinematic Orchestra soundtrack.

A lot of silent movies just have either music that is poorly recorded or sometimes just dull and un-inspired (or both). So I wanted to ask if it's acceptable to replace the canned music with something I'd rather listen to?
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#51

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

I have no problems with playing your own music for silent films.

However I do have a problem with someone hating on The Cinematic Orchestra score :verymad:
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#52

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

Alloy Orchestra is the one to have for Man With a Movie Camera.

Silent scores are often vital to their effectiveness, but as you say, a lot of what you find, especially on cheap DVDs and YouTube is so hit and miss that muting it is often an improvement.
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#53

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

Allison! So did you decide that watching the three existing minutes of Parada militar was a check? (Not grilling you -- I just want to know for myself.)
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#54

Post by joachimt »

Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on May 18 2016, 10:57:58 AM wrote:Allison! So did you decide that watching the three existing minutes of Parada militar was a check? (Not grilling you -- I just want to know for myself.)
Why did Allison post that it is shown on that website while she knows we're doubting if this even IS Parada Militar? It doesn't say anywhere that it is called that. The only thing we know is that there are three minutes of some short recorded at the same location around the release year of Parada Militar and it includes some parades among other things. Seriously, people are desperate for checks......
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#55

Post by monty »

joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:02:28 AM wrote:Seriously, people are desperate for checks......
That's life at the top for you - anything to stay in the Big Three. I guess she would have checked it even if it were just 10 secs surving of a 90 min feature aka the kas-method...
No, go dark and leave the checks rat race behind.
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#56

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Slightly off topic but it is silent films.

1) Any recs for 1920?
2) It doesn't seem like this is on imdb. Think there's any information about it? At least enough for me to add it on imdb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi63uVrJzk Some say that it's Alice Guy's, but isn't hers the one with the lions in the beginning?
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#57

Post by joachimt »

monty on May 18 2016, 11:04:10 AM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:02:28 AM wrote:Seriously, people are desperate for checks......
That's life at the top for you - anything to stay in the Big Three. I guess she would have checked it even if it were just 10 secs surving of a 90 min feature aka the kas-method...
No, go dark and leave the checks rat race behind.
It's not even about the fact that this is a fragment. People are now checking this movie after seeing something that doesn't even say the title. I'm not even 50% convinced this is the actual movie that's on the Unesco-list. But once Allison makes a post about it in the comments, people assume she's right. Otherwise they wouldn't check it.
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#58

Post by funkybusiness »

Ettinauer226XL on May 18 2016, 11:28:34 AM wrote:2) It doesn't seem like this is on imdb. Think there's any information about it? At least enough for me to add it on imdb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi63uVrJzk Some say that it's Alice Guy's, but isn't hers the one with the lions in the beginning?
I don't know if these sites have any legitimacy at all (probably not) but these (and others if you google, Danza serpentina, danza serpentina 1900, danza serpentina 1900 gaumont &c.) all seem to suggest that this was just a 'Gaumont' production.


http://www.filmaffinity.com/en/film169812.html
http://www.fulltvmovies.fr/dansa-serpentina.html
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#59

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:47:28 AM wrote:
monty on May 18 2016, 11:04:10 AM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:02:28 AM wrote:Seriously, people are desperate for checks......
That's life at the top for you - anything to stay in the Big Three. I guess she would have checked it even if it were just 10 secs surving of a 90 min feature aka the kas-method...
No, go dark and leave the checks rat race behind.
It's not even about the fact that this is a fragment. People are now checking this movie after seeing something that doesn't even say the title. I'm not even 50% convinced this is the actual movie that's on the Unesco-list. But once Allison makes a post about it in the comments, people assume she's right. Otherwise they wouldn't check it.
I'm pretty sure it is the same film. Film titles for such things are very informal. Here's a link to a contemporaneous news article: http://cinechile.cl/archivo-363 which gives it a title more similar to the one on UNESCO.
I don't see any real reason to think that fragment is all that survives, though.
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#60

Post by joachimt »

PeacefulAnarchy on May 18 2016, 01:47:00 PM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:47:28 AM wrote:
monty on May 18 2016, 11:04:10 AM wrote:That's life at the top for you - anything to stay in the Big Three. I guess she would have checked it even if it were just 10 secs surving of a 90 min feature aka the kas-method...
No, go dark and leave the checks rat race behind.
It's not even about the fact that this is a fragment. People are now checking this movie after seeing something that doesn't even say the title. I'm not even 50% convinced this is the actual movie that's on the Unesco-list. But once Allison makes a post about it in the comments, people assume she's right. Otherwise they wouldn't check it.
I'm pretty sure it is the same film. Film titles for such things are very informal. Here's a link to a contemporaneous news article: http://cinechile.cl/archivo-363 which gives it a title more similar to the one on UNESCO.
I don't see any real reason to think that fragment is all that survives, though.
Where do you see that page is about the same short that people are watching? It's hard for me to read a Spanish webpage (even with google-translate).
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#61

Post by allisoncm »

Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on May 18 2016, 10:57:58 AM wrote:Allison! So did you decide that watching the three existing minutes of Parada militar was a check? (Not grilling you -- I just want to know for myself.)
There were fragments from nine different segments. The website had other films on UNESCO in their entirety. I'm assuming if Parada Militar were available in its entirety, it'd be posted as well.

Dear Joachim, if there is any controversy or there is a democratically made decision, I can re-evaluate my check and/or go dark. Just let me know.

I think it's good we question things, but if only fragments remain, I think it's overkill not to check it even though we don't have access to something that doesn't exist anymore.
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#62

Post by Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi »

Thanks, Allison. Sorry to have inadvertently opened a can of worms, but I suppose we have to hash these issues out, even if it means revisiting old points of contention. In this case, J's beef seems to be about identification and not the old fragment chestnut, though.
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#63

Post by PeacefulAnarchy »

joachimt on May 18 2016, 01:55:52 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on May 18 2016, 01:47:00 PM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:47:28 AM wrote:It's not even about the fact that this is a fragment. People are now checking this movie after seeing something that doesn't even say the title. I'm not even 50% convinced this is the actual movie that's on the Unesco-list. But once Allison makes a post about it in the comments, people assume she's right. Otherwise they wouldn't check it.
I'm pretty sure it is the same film. Film titles for such things are very informal. Here's a link to a contemporaneous news article: http://cinechile.cl/archivo-363 which gives it a title more similar to the one on UNESCO.
I don't see any real reason to think that fragment is all that survives, though.
Where do you see that page is about the same short that people are watching? It's hard for me to read a Spanish webpage (even with google-translate).
They both mention the parade being on Sept 19th, same production company too. It is possible neither is the UNESCO film, I suppose.
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#64

Post by allisoncm »

Also, speaking of silent films, the San Francisco Silent Film Festival is coming up the first weekend in June. I think I am going to drive up for a couple days. This is going on during the L.A. Film Festival which is totally inconvenient, but it turned out the SF Silent Film schedule was more exciting than the L.A. Film Festival's schedule (to me).
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#65

Post by joachimt »

PeacefulAnarchy on May 18 2016, 02:06:18 PM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 01:55:52 PM wrote:
PeacefulAnarchy on May 18 2016, 01:47:00 PM wrote:I'm pretty sure it is the same film. Film titles for such things are very informal. Here's a link to a contemporaneous news article: http://cinechile.cl/archivo-363 which gives it a title more similar to the one on UNESCO.
I don't see any real reason to think that fragment is all that survives, though.
Where do you see that page is about the same short that people are watching? It's hard for me to read a Spanish webpage (even with google-translate).
They both mention the parade being on Sept 19th, same production company too. It is possible neither is the UNESCO film, I suppose.
It is possible, but at least this is more proof in favor it being the right one. The problem with the Unesco-list is that some countries hardly listed any info about some movies.

This is all that we've got from Unesco and all that has been used to add this title to IMDb:
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#66

Post by allisoncm »

PeacefulAnarchy on May 18 2016, 01:47:00 PM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 11:47:28 AM wrote:
monty on May 18 2016, 11:04:10 AM wrote:That's life at the top for you - anything to stay in the Big Three. I guess she would have checked it even if it were just 10 secs surving of a 90 min feature aka the kas-method...
No, go dark and leave the checks rat race behind.
It's not even about the fact that this is a fragment. People are now checking this movie after seeing something that doesn't even say the title. I'm not even 50% convinced this is the actual movie that's on the Unesco-list. But once Allison makes a post about it in the comments, people assume she's right. Otherwise they wouldn't check it.
I'm pretty sure it is the same film. Film titles for such things are very informal. Here's a link to a contemporaneous news article: http://cinechile.cl/archivo-363 which gives it a title more similar to the one on UNESCO.
I don't see any real reason to think that fragment is all that survives, though.
BTW, a couple people checked it before me. I approached it cautiously. I am willing to be the fall guy, though. :rolleyes:
Last edited by allisoncm on May 18th, 2016, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#67

Post by allisoncm »

Local Hero -- aka MestnyiGeroi on May 18 2016, 02:05:57 PM wrote:Thanks, Allison. Sorry to have inadvertently opened a can of worms, but I suppose we have to hash these issues out, even if it means revisiting old points of contention. In this case, J's beef seems to be about identification and not the old fragment chestnut, though.
It's okay. You totally brought it up nicely and some things deserved to be question. We're going through it now and I'm willing to re-visit my check if new information arises.
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#68

Post by joachimt »

It's not about you Allison. I questioned WalterNeff and Armoreska yesterday.
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#69

Post by allisoncm »

joachimt on May 18 2016, 02:13:45 PM wrote:It's not about you Allison. I questioned WalterNeff and Armoreska yesterday.
Alrighty, then. :lol: I guess you are going to question the 7 people that have checked it since me then.
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#70

Post by joachimt »

allisoncm on May 18 2016, 02:15:35 PM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 02:13:45 PM wrote:It's not about you Allison. I questioned WalterNeff and Armoreska yesterday.
Alrighty, then. :lol: I guess you are going to question the 7 people that have checked it since me then.
Nah. The only problem I had with you especially in this case is that you posted on iCM about the website to watch the movie before we even know for sure it actually is the movie.
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#71

Post by allisoncm »

joachimt on May 18 2016, 02:19:15 PM wrote:
allisoncm on May 18 2016, 02:15:35 PM wrote:
joachimt on May 18 2016, 02:13:45 PM wrote:It's not about you Allison. I questioned WalterNeff and Armoreska yesterday.
Alrighty, then. :lol: I guess you are going to question the 7 people that have checked it since me then.
Nah. The only problem I had with you especially in this case is that you posted on iCM about the website to watch the movie before we even know for sure it actually is the movie.
I read the Spanish and I weighed it against the UNESCO info. It seemed pretty straightforward. I know you are a stickler about these things and that's fine. But obviously others have less of a problem.
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#72

Post by brokenface »

Ettinauer226XL on May 18 2016, 11:28:34 AM wrote:Slightly off topic but it is silent films.

1) Any recs for 1920?
2) It doesn't seem like this is on imdb. Think there's any information about it? At least enough for me to add it on imdb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi63uVrJzk Some say that it's Alice Guy's, but isn't hers the one with the lions in the beginning?
1) There might be a few Keaton & Lloyd shorts you haven't seen (High & Dizzy is one of Lloyd's better ones) but I guess you're after features? I reckon you've seen all the ones I like.
I haven't actually seen it yet, but this is supposed to be good, been released by BFI bit like The Great White Silence: https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/south/ (sometimes listed as 1919)

2) there's so many versions, in fact I think Alice Guy has several, afraid I couldn't tell you. The only one that matters is the spoof with the dogs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwvUGsbfs9Y
https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/chi ... erpentine/
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#73

Post by max-scl »

I feel bad for having caused all this with Parada Militar. Anyway, to confuse things more:

Every military parade of the time was held at the same park (Parque Cousiño), from 1896 to 1915 from what I could research.

The people that submitted it to Unesco 20 years ago probably had a lot less info about the film than now, so the name and year could've been just what they know of it at the time. I think they got the year wrong but what do I know. I think 1910 is the most likely year because that year was the celebration centennial of the country so that's why they were filming all these and other stuff.

The cinemachile database lists three military parade movies:
http://cinechile.cl/pelicula-2469 (1909)
http://cinechile.cl/pelicula-2456 (1910, we have footage from this one, according to the site)
http://cinechile.cl/pelicula-948 (1911) Probably Unesco refers to this one because of the year

I dont know the relevance of ir being tinted, but because I'm ignorant about that stuff, maybe the negative was tinted or the negative was not but the copy they had at the time was, does anybody know how that works?
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#74

Post by Knaldskalle »

max-scl on May 18 2016, 02:54:26 PM wrote:I dont know the relevance of ir being tinted, but because I'm ignorant about that stuff, maybe the negative was tinted or the negative was not but the copy they had at the time was, does anybody know how that works?
In the old days tints were made by bathing the print in a chemical dye. The Kevin Brownlow restoration of Napoleon uses this technique and it adds a certain "glow" to the film you don't usually see, since nowadays it's added digitally or pre-print.

The original negative would not be tinted.
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#75

Post by joachimt »

max-scl on May 18 2016, 02:54:26 PM wrote:The cinemachile database lists three military parade movies:
http://cinechile.cl/pelicula-2469 (1909)
http://cinechile.cl/pelicula-2456 (1910, we have footage from this one, according to the site)
http://cinechile.cl/pelicula-948 (1911) Probably Unesco refers to this one because of the year
It's hard to tell if the last one is indeed the one Unesco refers to. The year you mention is the year it is recorded. The year mentioned on the Unesco-list could just as wel be the year of release when it was first shown. That could very well be a year later, because of the editorial work. So 1910 is still likely.

At least you made clear there are several possibilities for this. I hope they respond to your questions.
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#76

Post by De Limgralois »

All silent films with less than 10m long should be exclude of our rankings. Verify this stuff it's professional work, we don't do it through Internet without even join local archivists, institutes or companies. OK, that's fun, but that's professional work. If Institutes, archives and companies are reluctant to share their own historical material, we should wait, or presume. I guess we all have learned a lot with all these shorts but we are ridiculous to try to legitimize a check with very few informations. Most of time, professionals are not even that sure. We have no problem if people check this kind of film, innocently, by mistake when it's not in an official list, and it's a scandal when someone find a way to legitimize a new check. That's ridiculous. Just make a check a short film with at least 10minutes, which is actually what cinema is. A view, it's not yet cinema. Cinema started with editing. Sure, we would lost all very short Méliès early gems, but I would have no problem if this unfair move helped us to use iCM more properly. And let start a short race with 10-59m films. Without all of these very short films, the site might be even more quicker. At least it should be debated for the new iCM. We propose official new lists without any proper description but we are enough interested to make some research to be sure if a film is the one or not. That's a nonsense. We think more about our new checks than existent material on the site. Improving existent lists with description, sourced informations, instead of pretending to be the Indiana Jones of the celluloid.

We're like stupid and starving chimps digging the soil to find new truffles while there's fruit trees all around.

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Last edited by De Limgralois on May 19th, 2016, 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#77

Post by Gershwin »

De Limgralois on May 19 2016, 01:40:12 AM wrote:We're like stupid and starving chimps digging the soil to find new truffles while there's fruit trees all around.

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#78

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

brokenface on May 18 2016, 02:41:48 PM wrote:
Ettinauer226XL on May 18 2016, 11:28:34 AM wrote:Slightly off topic but it is silent films.

1) Any recs for 1920?
There might be a few Keaton & Lloyd shorts you haven't seen (High & Dizzy is one of Lloyd's better ones) but I guess you're after features? I reckon you've seen all the ones I like.
I haven't actually seen it yet, but this is supposed to be good, been released by BFI bit like The Great White Silence: https://www.icheckmovies.com/movies/south/ (sometimes listed as 1919)
Just watched most of these shorts. While they were enjoyable the only top 10 worthy one was Convict 13. I also did quite a few rewatches. So far I have a top 7. I was interested in South but I always thought that it was 1919 (like how Dreyer's Leaves From Satan's Books was 1921). Do you know if it's a different expedition than the one in The Great White Silence? If it's the same one then I don't see that much of a point in watching it.

Right now I'm just going through the RYM charts. Ran out of stuff that looks great. Algol and The Daughter of Dawn seem like great films but they're not released yet (The Daughter of Dawn was lost until recently).

I guess there's The Last of the Mohicans but I dunno...

This means that I will finally watch a film by Oscar Micheaux which feels like a blind spot to me. But I heard that tons of his stuff has scenes that were lost due to censorship.
Last edited by Pretentious Hipster on May 21st, 2016, 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#79

Post by Knaldskalle »

Ettinauer226XL on May 20 2016, 07:13:15 PM wrote:I was interested in South but I always thought that it was 1919 (like how Dreyer's Leaves From Satan's Books was 1921). Do you know if it's a different expedition than the one in The Great White Silence? If it's the same one then I don't see that much of a point in watching it.
South is the documentary shot during the ill-fated Shackleton Expedition, where their ship The Endurance got caught in the ice and sank, the crew had to abandon the expedition almost immediately and try to survive/get back/get help. It took them 18 months and surviving on next to nothing, but Shackleton managed to get help and didn't lose a single man. One of the finest examples of leadership you'll ever find.

Image
The Endurance, caught in the ice off Antarctica, before getting pulled under.

As a movie South isn't as well made as Great White Silence, one reason being that at some point the footage pretty much ends because the crew (including the photographer) is too busy trying to survive (and protect the existing footage) to film new stuff, but it's totally worth seeing (even if it might be from 1919).

P.S. Daughter of Dawn is streaming on Netflix (at least in the US).
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#80

Post by Pretentious Hipster »

Yea it's 1919 so that's gonna wait. It looks great though I'll have to check it out eventually.

It turns out that Von morgens bis Mitternacht is from 1920, which helps. A great film. Time to get its year updated in the other thread. Now to find 2 more great films...

I am glad that I rewatched L'hirondelle et la mésange. I probably just wasn't in the right mood when I watched it last year.
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